80/160 Observation & comments

Many of you have expressed an interest in moving up or just curious what the 80/160 games would be like. So the following is MY OPINION only, it may NOT be correct.


Few posters on two plus two play 80/160 to the best of my knowledge:

Abdul, Sklansky, Mason (occasionally), Three Bet Brett, & Jim Brier.

Any additional comments from them would be appreciated as well.


Seven sessions is a short time to make an evaluation, but here are my conclusions:


First of all (even if you are a great player with a good bankroll) when you sit down at 80/160 for the first time, you will likely be intimidated and not play your best. You may have a tendency to play too tight. The first time I played two years ago for one hour, I broke even but folded a hand that I should have raised with and cost myself a $2,000 pot. The second time I played I got pocket aces in a 7 handed pot and one opponent flopped a set of queens. I lost $2700 in 25 minutes.


Remembering those previous experiences, I decided to take a different approach this time. My plan was to win $2,000 in the 30/60 and take a freeroll with one rack of $20 chips (You need two racks, $4,000 to give yourself a descent chance). If you have a small stack of chips they will often attack you!


This plan made it easier for me without any pressure or intimidation; a way that I could play my aggressive game without fear; because I'm playing with won money - a total freeroll.

I did this my first session and made two successful semi-bluffs and won $1820 and quit. I had no pressure what so ever playing this way because I had a total free roll. If I had lost my $2,000 buy in, I would simply drop down to 30/60 again and win another $2,000 and fire again.


You may ask why would I want to play with better players when I know there is no edge in this game for me as there is in the 30/60 games. The answer is (a) I want to compare my skills to better players to see how much better (if any) they are (b) I want to learn something new from some of the world's best players.(c) I may just get lucky and win $10K (d) It's a total freeroll and I can't loose any of my money.


My observation and comments are as follows:

(1) The players are about 10% better (if that) than the best 30/60 players. However, some of them are the same and just taking a shot, same as I. However, 10% is what makes the difference between a good player and a great player!


(2) They played straight forward for the most part. I only saw a garbage hand win the pot once, 62o in the big blind got a free play and flopped two pair and won.

However, there are some trappers who always call on the flop with big hands and raise on the turn or river with position.


(3) They mostly play big pairs and Ten through Ace.


(4) Some unusual plays and both beat me - One player called my raise UTG with pocket kings with K6d on the button and beat me with a flush. Another player called my early raise with K7s one off the button and made a straight flush on the river.


(5) Twice I saw the button open-raise and the LB three-bet and the BB four bet. (very unusual)


(6) Most pots are raised preflop and are played out heads-up or three way. Most of the aggressive action takes place preflop and on the flop and usually settles down on the turn and river.


(7) Luck is a much bigger factor in this game because the swings are huge, fast, and brutal!


(8) The edge just isn't there in the 80/160 game like it is in the 30/60 games. This explains why you seldom, if ever, see Roy Cooke playing in them, because he knows there is NO EDGE in these games.


(9) When the WSOP is not going on there is only about 13 to 15 regular 80/160 players and sometimes you will get stuck and the game quickly breaks up. During the WSOP there were usually three tables going including two must move games. I didn't see anybody just throwing their chips away. (except me :-)


(10) These games are all about serious poker. Forget about the social aspect, it doesn't exist in these games, with a rare exception. They are there for only one reason - to get your money!


(11) You see a few big name tournament players sit and play for two rounds and then they realize there is no edge and get up and quit.


(12) The games are better a few days prior to the start of the WSOP. Jim Brier and Abdul made some good scores in these games when there were a few softer players in the game with a nice bankroll.


(13) You must defend your BB or they will run over you.


(14) You will seldom see a free card on the turn or river.


(15) You can't afford to make as many mistakes in 80/160 and survive like you can at 20/40 or 30/60.


I'm sure there is MUCH more to add but at least this should give you a feel for the game before playing...should you decide to get brave and take a shot like Matt Damon in "Rounders"

Good Luck!

...this is a very helpful and informative post, Bob.


The "no edge" thing is sort of off-putting, but hey, I never have an edge wherever I play, so where's my seat?

I don't see how the freeroll thing helps. Any money that you possess is yours and it doesn't matter if you won it that morning or last year.

I can relate to how that psycology works but it should be overcome if possible.


I think there are other reasons justify taking the shot and I am glad you did it! Because it made for an excellent and very informative post.


D.

The opponents are cold calling with K7s, K6s, and KJ versus your early raises because they stink. The edge starts there and continues when they make additional mistakes postflop, like failing to value bet/raise on the river when they finally do suck out. Seriously, I saw one or two of those hands where you lost to Kxs cheese, and those were simply bad players, not good ones making a positional play because they think they can outplay you postflop.


Although the very best 80-160 pros are (IMO) superior to the very best 30-60 pros, the typical 30-60 pros are superior to the typical 80-160 pros. That's a big part of the reason the top section pros like to keep the game at 80-160 rather than 60-120. Sometimes they even bump up the limit when they see a 30-60 pro walking towards an open seat. Granted, the pro density at the 80-160 is often high.


I frequently mentally rate 80-160 fish as "15-30 pro caliber" or "tournament pro." Even the more classic fish in the 80-160 know to be aggressive, and thus can be difficult to bag because they wind up stealing some pots from you. But the fishiest fish are very fishy indeed in the 80-160. Some are lost baccarat players, while others are rich guys who go "what does it mean to post?" because they've never played poker outside of a home game. The game is a whole lot easier to beat when there is dead money. Pick your spots.


In 80-160, as well as tough 30-60 games, you have to be able to defend yourself in heads up and 3-way confrontations. In most 80-160 games you can't simply sit there and wait for a hand, like you can in a loose 30-60 game. You have to get out there and steal and resteal versus the blinds, and you have to defend your blinds, and that combined with aggressive opponents makes for big swings. A lot of the 30-60 players play like they are trying to avoid losing chips, whereas most 80-160 players play as if they want to win pots.

Is it possible to put a percentage on how much better the 80/160 best players are than the 30/60 best players?


Is 10% about right or do you think it's 25 to 30% or more difference?


Thanks for your comments!

We always appreciate your input!

Bob and Abdul- Thanks for the insightful comments. Abdul's last point re: the "prevent defense" of the 30-60 player vs. the "offensive rush" of the 80-160 seems to be the PRIMARY differnce between the limits, all other variables being equal. Babe

It is a psychological issue as you say but an important one to most of us: In my last Vegas trip, my plan was to get ahead 2K in the 15 and 20 games before freerolling in the 30 games. Unfortunately, by the time I was up 2k in the 15 games, it was time to head to the airport...doh...


Ideally, you want to not let these freeroll things play a part in your decision making process but they unmistakably do for most of us particularly for Canucks like you and I where if we get killed in a couple of 30/60 (i.e. 50/100 Canadian money) sessions, we will have to grind it out for weeks in the Holiday Inn 10/20 game to get it back.

What about the 80-160 at Commerce? I'd like to hear about that.


BTW, I'm not selling any stocks.

"I did this my first session and made two successful semi-bluffs and won $1820 and quit. I had no pressure what so ever playing this way because I had a total free roll. If I had lost my $2,000 buy in, I would simply drop down to 30/60 again and win another $2,000 and fire again."


Ah! The Bob Morgan I have come to love!


vince

"(4) Some unusual plays and both beat me - One player called my raise UTG with pocket kings with K6d on the button and beat me with a flush. Another player called my early raise with K7s one off the button and made a straight flush on the river."


Isn't this always the case? You only know about the unusual plays that won the pot.

Although this concept doesn't hold at lower limits, it is possible that player A will win more at 80-160 than player B will, but win less than player B at 30-60.

You may ask why would I want to play with better players when I know there is no edge in this game for me as there is in the 30/60 games.

Even though your edge is not as great in 80 as in 30, it is probably not reduced by a factor of more than half.


(1) The players are about 10% better (if that) than the best 30/60 players


The problem is that you only have one or two of the best 30 players at the table, but there will probably be several very good 80 players at the table. The very best 80 players are more than 10% better, but your figure is probably correct for the average 80 pro.


(3) They mostly play big pairs and Ten through Ace.


heh. I think that's the way most good players play. I'll let Sklansky elaborate.


(5) Twice I saw the button open-raise and the LB three-bet and the BB four bet. (very unusual)

They were just letting the button know that there weren't going to be many stealing opportunities for him.


(6) Most pots are raised preflop and are played out heads-up or three way. Most of the aggressive action takes place preflop and on the flop and usually settles down on the turn and river.


The lack of multi way pots and very aggressive betting makes these games much harder to beat than lower limits.


(7) Luck is a much bigger factor in this game because the swings are huge, fast, and brutal!


I'm not sure why this makes luck a bigger factor. I think skill is a bigger factor.


(8) The edge just isn't there in the 80/160 game like it is in the 30/60 games. This explains why you seldom, if ever, see Roy Cooke playing in them, because he knows there is NO EDGE in these games.


He just realizes that he has no edge in these games.


(10) These games are all about serious poker. Forget about the social aspect, it doesn't exist in these games, with a rare exception. They are there for only one reason - to get your money!


I find high limit players to be much more friendly and sociable than lower limit pros.


(11) You see a few big name tournament players sit and play for two rounds and then they realize there is no edge and get up and quit.


Most tournament players don't have the skill to have an edge in any ring game, and very few have the bankroll to play 80.


(14) You will seldom see a free card on the turn or river.


(15) You can't afford to make as many mistakes in 80/160 and survive like you can at 20/40 or 30/60.


Both of these points are directly related to (6) above.


In short, what Bob found out is that it takes more than just a larger bankroll to move up.

The point is that if Bob loses the $2000, he is in no worse shape than if he didn't play that day. Taking a shot with opm is a great idea, and those of you who never step up until you have a bankroll large enough for sustained play at a certain limit are making a big mistake.

There is a much larger player base for the 80 game at the Commerce (the 80 game in LV has only been going on a regular basis since the series started). There are more multi way pots and more weak players.

I don't know if you ever play the 40/80 at the Commerce, but if you do, I was wondering if you might comment on what that game is generally like. I may make a trip to LA in August, and I would probably play mostly in the 20/40 range, but I would be willing to take shots in the 40/80 if the games are attractive. Is the 40/80 and 80/160 pretty much the same player pool, or can the 40/80 games be much softer? Thanks for any info!

I'd echo one of your thoughts. I've only taken a "shot" at 80-160 on several occasions. My observation is that the good players are not that much better than the good 30-60 players but there are more of them feeding on fewer fish and sometimes the game can go a long time without any fish (especially when the WSOP is not in town).


We should remember that most of the money we make in poker comes from the bad players and there are simply far fewer of them at 80-160 as a general rule.


Also, I have not played 80-160 at the Commerce but friends tell me that there are times when the games are no tougher than 30-60 or 40-80.


Just my thoughts.


Claude

I never said not to take a shot, I totally understand the point of that.


But it is arbitrarily to base it on money you won that day.


Skp, why not take 2K you made one week in a Vancouver game and save it for your shot money when you get to Vegas.


On the other hand I realize how much better one is likely to feel by staying even for the day, but it is the same syndrome as quitting ahead, or playing long sessions when stuck.


D.

I totally agree with 3 Bet Brett. In fact I'd take it a step further. First play at 30-60 and attempt to win a freeroll for 80-160. Then when you get to 80-160 and win 6,000 immediately move up to either 150-300, 200-400, 300-600, 25-25 pot-limit, or 25-50 pot-limit, whichever is available at the moment or easiest to beat. Pretend you're in a tournament where you're your own tournament director - in full control of when to raise or lower the limits, in full control of table selection, in full control of how much of the current winnings to cash in in between limit/table transitions, in full control of when to terminate the tournament, in full control of when to take meal/bathroom breaks. By doing this you'll give yourself the chance of a tournament killing while at the same having the ability to pocket winnings in mid-tournament and to have your individual plays be part of a long-term live game EV sample. I call this The Private Tournament Live Game Bankroll Explosion Method. I have posted this method before under several handles. It combines the best of both worlds. You get to be Roy Cooke and Eskimo Clark at the same time. You get to be Jim Brier and Men Nguyen at the same time. You get to be Mason Malmuth and Tom McEvoy at the same time. You get to be David Sklansky and T.J. Cloutier at the same time.

one other factor is that when you step up in limits (after) during a big win in your normal game youre in your best form, are loose, and just have that sort of glow.


going into an unknown stressful situation this can really be a boost.


brad

[i]The problem is that you only have one or two of the best 30 players at the table, but there will probably be several very good 80 players at the table. The very best 80 players are more than 10% better, but your figure is probably correct for the average 80 pro.[i/]


I think this is the real difference. When there is only one or two experts in your game it is easy to steer around them. But when there are five or six it becomes much tougher.

Yeah, the 80-160 games definitely have a much more social atmosphere than the 30-60's. The vast majority of the 80-160 pros golf together (at least at Bellagio and Bay 101.) There is a lot of light-hearted joking and very little bad tempered criticism of play. Bob wasn't playing the normal cast of Vegas 80-160 characters.

A great idea!

Thanks for the post.

You'll find plenty of fish in the 40-80. I've never played 80-160.

Great information Brett! Thanks for correcting some of my thoughts.

Your comments seem to be on target and are also supported by Abdul and you guys play 80/60 much more than I do.

The forum and I thank you for your time and input!

Then it must be better at Commerce. Thanks for the info in case I ever sit down at the big game.

Play it tournament style--I concur! /images/smile.gif

You're just nitpicking. What difference would it make if you used money won last month or last hour? In both cases you are playing with opm. Hell, I've been on a free roll all year because I've been running so good.


If you waste time and energy focusing on insignificant issues, it is unlikely you will ever make much progress in poker.

Not too much overlap from the 40 to the 80. The 40 is much softer, which is why I have decided to start playing it more often. The great thing about the Commerce is that the 15, 20, 30, and 40 games are all right next to each other, making it easy to move around in the games.

me thinks its insignificant making distinction between opm and some other source of your money.

Thank, Brett, that's really helpful. I really like the sound of having those games next to each other, since I would potentially play any of those 4 limits. God do I envy how good the hold'em action sounds out in LA...