Should This Play Be Routine?

Playing 80-160, I raised an early limper with two black kings. Button and small blind called. Flop was T63 two diamonds. Small blind bet. Limper called. I just called. Button called. Turn paired threes. Bet, call, I raise now. The rest of the hand doesn't matter. Should this specific hand usually be played this way in this specific situation or only once in a while? The main alternative of course would be to raise on the flop.

Yes! - Your play was perfect. You aren't going to fold a flush draw on the flop. You are charging them two big bets on the turn with only one card left.

I never thought of playing a hand that way.....nice tip, thanks

It seems like you've painted the perfect picture of a play that should be routine.


There's no value in raising the flop as far as losing the flush draw(s), because they aren't going anywhere.


Nobody's holding a trey, I'd say that's fairly clear, so the setup is beautiful.


Are you worrying about giving an ace or a pocket pair a chance on the turn? They're already in for one bet, so another's not gonna chase 'em.


If it were 4 ways, I'd say raise. Here, I say calling and raising the turn should be fairly routine.

Well, the obvious downside is that the random aces and gutshots have correct or near correct odds to call on the flop. It's possible that those aren't out there, at the moment, but it's something to think about.


That's less important here, since almost nobody will be facing a double bet, since the sb, bb and limper are all in for a bet already. I suspect the key thing here is that there's a bet and some callers in front of you on the flop. If it's checked to the limper, who bets, do you raise then?


One nice thing is that the hand is a little easier to play if the flush card comes on the turn, depending on the action in front of you. You will be able to get away from it when the sb bets and the limper raises on the turn, for instance, but you get to bet when it's checked to you.


- target

Because you make less money. If the flush draw is out there, he'll pay an extra bet now, but won't pay off on the river.


Of course, you still have to pay him on the river if he hits, most likely, but you're willing to lose a bet when he hits in order to make an extra bet when he misses, since he misses more often than he hits.


- target

It is definitely part of my arsenal but I don't know if I woul call it routine. It depends on how often you are raising with overcards in this position. Here, with the small blind betting and a limper already calling, I wouldn't raise with overcards often so smoothcalling with KK makes sense as your later smoothcalls with overcards may not be seen as a license for anyone to bet/raise on the turn when no high card shows up.


As always, it's a case of balance. You certainly should not always raise with KK and always call with AK. You need to also smoothcall with KK and raise with AK (if you feel that it's wortthwhile to contine - perhaps, you have the AdKc or something).

Also, the bettor may not bet the river for you if he has something like middle pair or a pocket underpair.


BTW, the flush draw on the flop is of course something to note but just because there is a bet and a call ahead of you does not mean that a flush card on the turn spells doom for you. For example, if as in the xample given, I just smoothcall the flop and the bettor bets again on the turn when a diamond comes, I may still raise on the turn with KK particularly if the player to my left also called on the flop (his failure to raise on the flop is some indication he is not on a flush draw and you now want to lower the boom to make it hard for him to call with a singleton Diamond). If the player to my left had folded on the flop and the bettor bets again on the turn when the Diamond hits, then I probably would not raise on the turn as I can't knock anyone off with the raise and more importantly, I can't very well represent a flush because if I had two diamonds, as the preflop raiser, I would also have two overcards and I therefore ought to have raised on the flop.

It seems that the decision to raise on the flop or turn should be based on your where your opponents are likely/willing to do their gambling.


For instance, suppose the flop bettor is likely to have a flush draw, and further suppose he's one of those folks that plays his draws aggressively on the flop. If you can collect five bets from each of them on the flop, and one BB from each on the turn, that's 7 BB's post flop. Conversely, if your raise will freeze them up, then you make only 4 BB's by raising, and the 5 BB's you make by raising on the turn is better. Also, you save some money the 20% of the time that an ugly turn card arrives.


But this is an 80-160 and you're David Sklansky, so:


1. Is a flop raise really likely to freeze up a typical 80-160 player? Isn't he more likely to test you back with AT? Waiting until the turn to make your move may allow him to get away from the hand, whereas building a pot on the flop ties him on, drawing at five outs.


2. You're David Sklansky. You raise before the flop, now he bets, and you call. If I do this, it means nothing - they don't know me from Adam. You do it, and a page goes over the P.A. system: "Warning - Sklansky has a big hand." I'd be too worried that your calling would freeze them into checking the turn. If I were you, I'd be inclined to do my gambling when there are many more hands that you can have and they're likely to make serious mathematical errors against you.


Of course the flush won't fold on the flop. And he won't fold on the turn. The only interesting question is how you (David) make the most money.


So the correct answer:


1. It's a function of the aggressiveness and cleverness of your opponents, and


2. It's a function of your image.


Regards, Lee

Clarify more clearly your thinking on this hand. What turn cards are you raising? You get the most obvious 'pop-the-turn' card in the deck.


Would you raise any non-diamond turn card?


lars

No. Routinely one should raise the flop in this situation. When it gets to you on the flop there are six big bets in the pot. The pot is now big enough to try and drive out the button which may increase your chances of winning the pot. The fact that you can't drive out a flush draw is a poor reason for not raising. There is no reason to try and keep the pot small at this point because it's already big. If you are already beat by a set (two pair are unlikely) by the SB or limper the flop is a good time (cheaper place) to find that out. Raise the flop!


Vince

Without the Kd in your hand, I like the call on the flop. Once the board pairs the 3, one of your dead cards just came back to life.

Which 2 cards, by the way, were suited?

anyone who is willing to call two cold on the turn with a flush draw (despite the paired board) is getting nearly correct implied odds to keep drawing to the flush anyway so raising the turn is not all that fanastic a play here.


since you are only losing right now to TT (3 combos and preflop wasnt 3-bet btw), 66 (3 combos), a hand with a 3 (hard to say, but unlikely), and AA (6 combos and no preflop reraise) you want every single other non flush draw hand (and 54) hand to keep drawing as they are drawing very very thin (2 outs now that hero has kings-up, unless they have an Ace in which case they have 3 outs, 87 and 98 have 4 outs).


in other words, given the likelihood your hand is good here vs the likelihood you will get drawn out on vs the size of the pot (7 big bets) (and factor

in the chance someone with a ten will bet the river for you since 80 players tend to be real aggressive) i think a call on the turn with an eye to raising the river if a non-flush, non-T or 6 comes is closer than many would think and should be sometimes considered.

I believe that in this specific scenario, my play is fairly automatic. However it is important to avoid generalizing it. In order for it to be clearly correct:


1. I have aces or kings, not jacks or queens.


2. I suspect a four flush.


3. There is no more than one player behind me.


4. I don't think the initial bettor will reraise unless he beats kings.


5. I am fairly certain that if I only call, the first guy will almost always bet the turn (except perhaps if an ace or a flush card comes) and will usually be called by the limper.


Hopefully you can see why each of these factors is important.


The argument that you need to raise on the flop to balance out those times you raise with AK in similar situations is not a good one. Reason being that you will still raise with smaller overpairs or with more players behind you.

David,


In this situation, I like the idea of varying

one's play by sometimes calling the flop, though

normally raising would be my preference.


When the small blind bets out on the turn, I'm

thinking that he A) has filled and wants some more action, or, more likely, B) he also has an overpair to the board, in which case you're likely the favourite here. With aces he'd probably

have three-bet before the flop, but with queens or jacks may well have smooth-called, looking to trap.


On to see the answer!


perfidious

2. I suspect a four flush.


Big deal.


What about driving out the button?


What about doing everything you can to win the pot when it gets big as it is in this case?


What about getting more money in the pot when you have the best hand?


What about not raising and having the sb and limper check to you?


Fairly automatic bad play if you ask me. Just what is the driving concept(s) behind this play? You make it sound like all these factors need to be lined up for this to be the right play with pocket Kings. If you are correct then your play becomes one of specificity in a somewhat unique situation. Your answer in my opinion deserves similar criticism to that laid by Mason on Jim Brier's book. Take those four criteria you list and explain just how a poker player can interpret them to improve his game or play optimal poker. I think you are wrong here. Very wrong.


It is sometimes very important to take control of the situation. Letting a cold calling preflop button play for essentially a free bet is not in your best interest when the pot is this big.


Vince.

I would have typically raised too before he brought this up, but:


What about driving out the button?


What about doing everything you can to win the pot when it gets big as it is in this case?


I think the point is that "doing everything you can to win" in this case means trying to checkraise the turn to try and drive out multiple players rather than just the button on the flop.


What about getting more money in the pot when you have the best hand?


This is not as important as driving out players when the pot is this big.


What about not raising and having the sb and limper check to you?


A bet here will still drive out players.