$80-$160 Hands w/Abdul

I would like some comments on the two $80-$160 hands I played with Abdul Jalib this evening.


First hand. I am in the cutoff seat with the Qc-Tc and open with a raise. The button folds. Abdul is sitting in the small blind and 3-bets. The big blind folds. I call. The flop is: Js-9h-3d, giving me an open-end straight draw with an overcard. Abdul bets. I raise. Abdul calls. The turn is the 6c. Abdul checks. I bet. Abdul raises. I call. The river is the the 7c. Abdul bets and I fold.


Question: Should I have checked it back on fourth and taken my free card?


Second Hand. I am in the big blind with the Ad-Th. Abdul opens with a raise from the cutoff seat. The button folds but the small blind calls. I call. The flop is: Ac-7c-6d, giving me top pair, shaky kicker. The small blind checks. I check. Abdul bets. The small blind raises. I 3-bet. Abdul calls. The small blind calls. The turn is the 4h. The small blind checks. I check. Abdul checks. The river is the Td, giving me the top two. The small blind checks. I bet. Abdul calls. The small blind folds. I win as Abdul mucks.


After the hand, the small blind said he had pocket kings. Abdul said he had A-K. I guess I sucked out on this one.


What do you think of my 3-bet on the flop followed by a check on the turn?

The first hand depends on how often you think he will fold or that you will draw out. This is partly a function of the player and how wide his three bet range will be in the small blind. I'll let others elaborate.


Your second play I don't like at all. When you make it three bets (on the flop) you are trying to fold out the original before the flop raiser who may now be betting automatically on the flop.


1. If his hand is two high cards below aces why would you want him to fold?


2. If he has an ace with a weaker kicker for only three outs you again don't want him to fold.


3. If he has an ace with a better kicker he's going to stay in and you cost yourself a bet.


4. If he has a pair in his hand for only two outs you again want him to stay.


5. If he has middle or bottom pair for five outs you want him to fold but given that you are looking at a 7 and a 6 it is less likely for these to be out.


There are other cases but I'll let others elaborate if they choose to do so. But as you can see, virtually everyone of these three bets will hurt you by either costing you extra when you don't have the best hand or by reducing your expected earn when your hand is best.


This hand is a good example of how the idea that "I think I have the best hand therefore I either bet or raise" is not always correct. Here you often hurt yourself whether you have the best hand or not.

I'd like to know why Abdul checks AK last to act on the turn? oesn't he want to make the drawer pay. And the worse Ace? I wonder if he lied about his hand?

First hand: QTs. Given 10 outs (average) and an average 1BB extra won if you win a showdown, your EV for checking is 10/46(5.5BB)=1.20BB. The EV for betting is X(4.5BB)+(1-X)(36/46(-1BB)+10/46(6.5BB))=3.87X+0.63, where X is the chance Abdul folds a better hand, meaning you show a profit over checking when X > 0.15 (15%). If Abdul check raises whenever he doesn't fold, you instead need him to fold to a turn bet with a frequency higher than 26% to show a profit over checking. As a tough heads up player, I'm not sure Abdul is going to fold the best hand here often enough for your bet to show a profit (especially since you should face lots of check raises when he doesn't fold), since a big ace or pocket pair is pretty much a showdown hand at this point, and anything else he might have 3 bet you with preflop should have picked up a gutshot or paired the flop (which means he probably ain't folding those either).


Second hand: AT. This hand just has trouble written all over it. The SB's preflop smoothcall is suspicious, since he should generally be reraising in that spot to drive you out. He is either playing something he shouldn't, or he has a hand so strong that he doesn't care if you tag along.


So now you flop and ace and don't know if your hand is any good. Since it would be strange for the SB to not have 3 bet preflop with a better ace, Abdul seems your main worry. I would bet out and see what happens. If Abdul folds you can play the way ahead or way behind check'n'call game using your position on the SB to save/induce bets, and if Abdul calls or raises you can see what the SB does and work from there (probably folding if the SB raises or seeing a showdown if he drops). I think you chose the path of least information and greatest uncertainty by checking the flop, inviting a bet with virtually anything by Abdul and a raise with any pair by the SB.


After the SB check raises, it seems to me that Mason is right that your reraise should cost you money from Abdul (because he only stays in with better hands and folds the ones you want to stay in), but at least you gain a little value in finding out that you are probably beat if Abdul calls (or reraises) or in being able to play heads up with position on the SB if Abdul folds.


Anyway, I think checking the turn is fine now that it looks quite likely you are beaten. Interestingly, your flop reraise probably bought you the free turn card, since Abdul has to worry that the SB was waiting to check raise you, although it's hard to say how much this adds to the general value of reraising on the flop in this situation.


The river brought you your miracle. But all the tough decisions that got you there seem to argue that maybe a fold preflop was best. After all, consider you hit your best card on the flop and were still stuck in a terrible spot with little idea what to do.

Jim,


Do you think Abdul is telling the truth about having the AK on the second hand? If he did I wonder why he doesn’t bet the turn? He can’t figure you for fancy checkraise plays or do you have some new tricks /images/smile.gif.


Regards,


Rick

... read your post before asking about the same question.

Rick,


You're of course right that he may have had not held AK. If he did, however, I'm sure that he's checking for fear of the SB trying to check-raise, not Jim trying to check-raise. Regardless, I am also surprised that Abdul would not find a bet with AK there. We're seeing the hand from Jim's perspective, though, so we don't know: a) what Abdul really had, b) what Abdul's read of the situation was, c) much of anything about the SB.


-Dan

But all the tough decisions that got you there seem to argue that maybe a fold preflop was best.


I'm super tight in this spot, that is when the button/cutoff open raises and the SB cold calls and I'm in the BB. However, that seems a little too tight to me. Of course, it depends mostly on the SB. I don't play as high as 80-160, so I don't know what's typical, but I would assume that the smooth call should mean that he does not have AJ-AK. Even if could mean sometimes mean AA-1010, I think you're ok to call as long as this is balanced out by enough other hands. From what I've seen, most hands that people call with here are hands like J10 and Q10 and K10 and 109, all hands that you dominate. And it's unreasonable to fear that Abdul has you dominated, since you know that he will open with a lot of aces from that spot.

The first hand looks somewhat similar to the hand you posted last November about a heads-up situation with Abdul in 15-30. Hosh's response was excellent and spoke of maximizing earn on the turn. Hosh predicted a check raise would come somewhere down the road, and it looks like it came here in the 80-160 instead of the 15-30. That would indicate a check might be in order. I'd be interested to see what you and Hosh say about the similarities of that previous hand compared to this one. He got you for 2 BB here, which is something Hosh warned about.

what a memory..not just the babes...gl

No trick to it. Sometimes a concept from the forums sticks out and you take steps to remember.

Play on both hands was terrible. Hand one--all you have really is a draw. Just call it until you

miss.


Hand two--A-10 offsuit is just asking for trouble.

Fold on the flop. You got lucky. Since Abdul

likes to play against you, consider a return to 30-60.

In the first hand, I think it's often correct to give your lone opponent yet another opportunity to fold his hand by continuing to bet your draw.


In the second hand, I tend to be more cautious (even against potential blind steals), when the sb comes in for the pre-flop raise.

hey i look hand up. big difference jimmy had acjc last time this time he got qctc. much better showdown val with 1st hand. also abdul 3 bet from blinds this time last time he call from blinds. me thinks he should check both hands on turn. no need to stop bluff either one.

"Question: Should I have checked it back on fourth and taken my free card?"


Absolutely not. There are far too many hands he could have here which completely missed the flop. Plus, even if he does jack it up, you've still got a draw to the nuts. No way would I ever check here.


"What do you think of my 3-bet on the flop followed by a check on the turn?"


The 3-bet on the flop gives Abdul a better chance to fold, so I like it. I don't care for the check on the turn. I realize Abdul told you he had AK, but I'd still bet the turn every time here. I can see checking a club on the turn, but not a total blank. What could he raise with here that you would be uncomfortable laying down to? If he's on clubs, he's paying for his draw. If he's got AK, he can't raise for fear of sets and 2 pairs. If he jacks it up, you can lay your hand down, especially if the small blind calls 2 cold.

"all you have really is a draw"


If you only play made hands strongly in these type of games, where it is frequently heads up or 3 players, then you will be playing too weak.


I am not saying Jim should absolutely bet the turn

but "just calling until you miss" is terrible stategy in these situations. You need to give your opponents a chance to fold and its best to do it when you have a lot of outs in case he has something.


D.

The raise from the SB is not so different from the call from the BB in the previous hand. I think the concept in Hosh's response applies to both.

Huh? Are you saying that you must make your hand in order to bet and/or win?


You can't possibly be saying that. I'm sure I'm misunderstanding.


Please clarify.

First hand: Don't take the free card.


Second hand: Bet the turn to defend against flushes, try for the free showdown instead.


- Andrew

...to Mason on this. I read his post after I posted, and now I see the error of my ways.


I DO believe, however, that at some point or another in many a hand, the pot becomes large enough to play for IT, rather than EV.


Holding A/T here, I want the hand over with and the chips in front of me. I want the next hand in the air. I want to be tossing a toke.

Hand 2. I really don't believe Abdul and I wouldn't get in the habit of caring about the truth-value of his claims about his cards post-hand -- I'm not saying you do. You should bet the turn unless you don't know what to do to an Abdulian raise -- it's probably close between calling (favored) and folding, a call says you're going to hang in there and not get moved off a hand (!) and a fold is cheaper.

On the first hand, I am coming to the conclusion that free cards in heads-up situations are frequently pointless. By betting, I give myself a chance to win the pot without making anything. If I get called or raised, I have my 8 straight outs to fall back on. Furthermore, if I get check-raised and then make my hand, I will probably get bet into at the river where I can raise. When this happens, I collect two big double bets at the river. The problem with checking it back on fourth is that Abdul will know exactly where I am coming from. If I hit my hand, he will see it and check to me. I might not even collect anything at the river.


On the second hand, I don't think my 3-bet on the flop was right for the reasons Mason states. At the time, I did not know where I was at and I wanted to slow these guys down. I thought a 3-bet on the cheap street would do that. As an aside, I think the guy with pocket kings should have 3-bet preflop from the small blind. I believe it is important to get the big blind out in these situations. I don't blame Abdul a bit for checking the turn given the power sequence on the flop.


Thanks for the responses.

I believe Abdul about his hand. As I state in my post below, he ran into a firestorm on the flop and was fearful of running into a check-raise on the expensive street. This is one of the reasons I 3-bet the flop. I wanted to slow these guys down. Sometimes it works but the play was still wrong.

As stated below, I think he checked because he was concerned about being check-raised by either the small blind or me. He could easily be up against a set in which case he is drawing dead or two pair which means he could be drawing slim. Assuming the small blind had pocket kings, a free card doesn't rate to cost much since collectively we have only four outs to beat him.

Not because playing AK that way was necessarily wrong but rather because he would have contributed to this thread otherwise.

On the first hand, good analyses. Him folding 15%-20% of the time sounds about right to me. If he has A-K, A-Q, T-T, or 8-8 I would think he would have to lay it down having been raised on the flop and now bet into on fourth. I would not expect him to put me on a draw given the rainbow board. I don't rate to have specifically queen-ten or ten-eight. Assuming that he will always check-raise me with a hand he would play is unclear.

Yes, I'm surprised you could co-author a book with Bob Ciaffone and even think about checking a draw heads-up. /images/smile.gif

if abdul have AK if you call flop why not he 3 bet?

First hand - I would raise on the flop and see the rest of the hand without putting any more money into the pot unless I made my hand.

Why?

(1) Because you have the worst hand now.

(2) Abdul will NOT allow you to bluff him out of the pot.

You should have saved that $320


As an aside, your thinking was correct against an average player but this was Abdul, and it does make a difference with him!


Second Hand. Calling preflop is marginal to weak. Folding would not be a mistake.

Three-betting the flop was a horrible play.

You sucked out on the river!

Abdul was probably pulling your chain about AK.

But you drug the pot :-) and that's a good thing!

"Question: Should I have checked it back on fourth and taken my free card?"


no. you shouldve smooth called the flop and raised on the turn. this is the best way to scare a very good player heads up and keep him from taking control of the hand from you on the turn, which is exactly what you did and exactly what he couldve chosen to do with ace high. 3 betting the turn was also a strong option. you played this hand very weakly on the flop and turn thus giving an excellent player with possibly nothing more than ace high or a foldable pocket pair a chance to run over you.


i dont really have much to say about the second hand except that i doubt abdul had AK, although it is possible. AQ or AJ seem possible though as well as QQ or something very weak that he wouldnt want to admit to.


i think a bet on the turn here is strong because you want to keep betting top pair on draw heavy boards to save the pot for you when you sometimes continue with your semibluffs on the turn. i think there are good reasons to check though.

If he has A-K, A-Q, T-T, or 8-8 I would think he would have to lay it down having been raised on the flop and now bet into on fourth.


I might disagree here, depending on how you think Abdul perceives you. Unless it's fairly rare for you to raise Abdul on this flop with something like AQ KT or 88, I think it unlikely he will very often fold a big ace (or even a pocket underpair) on the turn. If he thinks you generally won't continue a bluff to the river (so he might get a free showdown or be able to safely fold to a bet there), he only needs a 12% chance that something with few outs (like 22) is the best hand to make a call correct. If he thinks you would sometimes continue a bluff to the river (so he can't safely fold there) he now needs a 19% chance of having the current best hand (not counting his potential 2-6 outs) to make 2 calls correct. You would have to be fairly predictable in your flop raises for Abdul to let go here, especially with a hand like AK/AQ which rates to have 6 outs much of the time. IMO you should rarely be folding AK or AQ in a pot that started heads up unless you are against a fairly predictable opponent. There is so much more posturing in heads up play that any action doesn't necessarily mean a near nut ace high is no good, and adding in the fact that you usually have 6 outs to fall back on, folding in a decent size pot (such as this one) is going to be a mistake given even a small chance of being in the lead.


Assuming that he will always check-raise me with a hand he would play is unclear.


I hope it was clear that I included that check raise bit to set an upper bound on how often you needed him to fold to show a profit over taking the free card, not because I thought that was how he would play it.

Yeah, I still don't feel comfortable making that fold preflop, but this hand has gotten me thinking about it. I think the SB makes a huge error in his preflop smoothcall, unless he is willing to smoothcall with many lesser hands as well; otherwise he is screaming "I have a big pocket pair" here. Anyway, your marginal hand, the SB's possibly scary smoothcall, and your terrible position in the middle of your two opponents might make a preflop fold a stronger consideration than usual.

But the very fact that he called two bets cold on the flop should have you guys shaking in your boots and he knows that so when he bets his AK, he may in fact be represnting a much stronger hand than AK to the two of you.


He probably has you on an Ace (BTW, I agree with Mason's comment that three betting the flop is probably wrong). So, he knows that you only have 3 outs. He can't know that the small blind has KK and just 2 outs. He probably puts the small blind on at least a 5 outer and possibly 9 so colectively, there are 8 to 12 bad cards for him on the river. If he bets, you might fold. Removing three ugly cards is a worthwhile goal. Also, he collects another 2 big bets when both of you call and miss.

Hm...I don't agree that folding AT preflop is the best move. Abdul is in a steal position and the sb would have three bet if he had a better Ace.

But unless Abdul is up against particularly tricky players, betting AK has to be right. He can always fold if checkraised (again, depending on the trickiness barometer).

On the second hand, would you really dump A-T in the big blind against a late position steal-raise? Think about the range of hands a guy in late position will steal with. I can understand folding against an early position raiser but not a steal-raiser.


P.S.: I vaguely remember reading a post somewhere about how a winning $30-$60 player opened raised with 9-7 offsuit from two off the button. Would you fold A-T in the big blind against someone who makes steal-raises with this kind of junk?

If you think Abdul was lying about the AK, then how can you be so sure that Jim sucked out on the river? If he really had AQ or AJ, would he lie and say he had AK? What would be the point of that?

Sheesh, it's just 12 hours after Jim's post and 16 hours after the hand. I do play and sleep.


Actually, and I know I'm going out on a limb here, but I believe Jim lied. I was reading all the responses wondering what the hell people were thinking. How could I possibly not have AK given how I played it and the showdown?! Maybe AK's kissing cousin, AQs, sure, but that's about it. Then I reread Jim's description of the hand, which I only skimmed the first time. Although Jim takes notes and I don't, he believe messed this one up. I believe the preflop action should read:


Jim open-raises 4 off the button, Abdul 3-bets from 1 off the button, the (very very solid) player in the big blind cold calls, and Jim calls.


After the hand, I rechecked Jim's position and made a mental note that Jim B. open-raises with AT 4 off the button, even in 80-160. Jim took the big blind on the following hand.


The reason for my check on the turn was that I was running out of aces to put my opponents on. If we give Jim an ace, then do I believe the (very very solid) player in the big blind has the case ace? Well, maybe, but let's say the only aces he would play are AK/AKs, AQs, or AJs; in this case, it's equally likely that he has an ace or a set (assuming he would play 66 and 77, which I'm not sure about.) I just didn't put the (very very solid) player in the big blind on a flush draw. (I'm pretty sure I held the king of the flush suit, for one thing.) Or if the (very very solid) player in the big blind has an ace, then maybe Jim has a set.


So I thought I was either drawing dead versus a set (and would be check-raised) or my opponents had at most 6 outs between the two of them. (They actually had just 4 outs combined.) In retrospect, KK does seem like a reasonable holding, as I 3-bet preflop suggesting perhaps QQ/JJ/TT, and then of course he would expect Jim would fold a weak ace like AT. The (very very solid) player said after the hand that he donated $80 on the flop - I guess suggesting that he should not have taken a card off. He had only one out, and he suspected as much.

On the second hand, would you really dump A-T in the big blind against a late position steal-raise?


I don't think the claim is that you should fold AT in the BB against a steal raise, I think it's that you should fold AT in the BB against a steal raise and cold-call from the SB. There is a big difference.

I assume that you 3 bet preflop and therefore the bb called two bets cold preflop. Also, what then was the flop betting sequence i.e. Perhaps, Jim bet, you raised and the bb coldcalled and then Jim called and they both checked to you on the turn. If that is so, I can see why you would check with Ak (given bb's coldcall of two bets cold preflop and on the flop and the fact that he is very very solid).


Or, did the flop go like this: You bet, sb raised, Jim three bets and then you coldcalled two and then sb called. Then they both check to you on the turn: In that case, I would bet with your AK.

Like I responded to Daniel, I'm not really comfortable with the preflop fold, but in this very unusual circumstance it might not be so wrong. I say very unusual because of the smoothcall from the SB, which sets off some alarms (AA-QQ?) if he is a player who would normally reraise or fold (which is almost always the right play). I agree he shouldn't have AK-J, but then again he shouldn't have anything other than AA-KK (maybe QQ) if he isn't making a mistake, right? If that is the case and Abdul has any ace, then Jim is drawing pretty thin already (0 or 2 single card outs, depending on Abdul's kicker). By the way, I am assuming the SB is a reasonable player given the limit and that Jim didn't give us any extra description of him. If you put a poor to average player in the SB, then I think the preflop call is a pretty easy one. All that aside, I'm betting this comes up so infrequently that it doesn't really matter whether you call or not.

no problem

"Or, did the flop go like this: You bet, sb raised, Jim three bets and then you cold-called two and then sb called."


Correct, as I recall, except the sb is the bb.


"Then they both check to you on the turn: In that case, I would bet with your AK."


It's an interesting spot.

Regarding the first hand, yes, you should bet the turn. It's your chance to steal from something like AQ or 55. You should only check the turn if you are absolutely sure I have a hand, which isn't the case here because it's a possible steal/resteal situation. When you get check-raised on the turn, it's not really that big a deal - now you are almost certain you are badly beaten and need to hit your straight to raise on the river.

The difference is the sb stuck his nose in...now you have two players to beat instead of just one. If the sb is a good player he difinetely has you beat and the late position raiser may also have you beat. You have a hand you can't play with confidence.


However, you did give yourself a chance to win by playing the hand.

Just like the player with 97...he gave himself a chance to win!

well then, raise on the flop only. Really all you have is a draw. Occasionally, Abdul will fold, but a reraise is more likely.

ACK! My stomach turns just thinking about folding AK here.

But Jim, don't you have to re-evaluate just a bit after the sb comes in for the raise? In other words yes, ATo figures to be a big hand against a lone opponent who might be stealing. But with the addition of someone who has called $120 cold in front of you, your hand could easily be in trouble and should be downgraded accordingly. No?

why do Mason and David always say they will "let others elaborate"? Please, we (well, I guess I can only speak for myself here, but...) want to here you guys elaborate! Seldom is the elaboration by others nearly as concise, interesting or correct as those by these guys.

"3. If he has an ace with a better kicker he's going to stay in and you cost yourself a bet. "


Is it inconceivable that Abdul would fold AK, AQ or AJ in this spot? Is it incorrect for a player to fold AQ, AJ in Abdul's spot?

No. Would you fold?

I asked the other player from that hand about what positions we were in. He said Jim was UTG, not in the blind, and that he open-raised and I 3-bet preflop. He said he was in the small blind.


He asked why I wanted to know, and he was pretty horrified that someone would post a 80-160 hand on the Internet and he vowed never to return to Vegas.


At Bellagio, David Sklansky pointed out that while it's okay for him (David) to say I lied, it's not okay for me to say Jim lied. I stand corrected. No offense was intended.

Well now that the damage is done you can tell us who that third palyer was. Well?

Here is what I wrote down. I was sitting in seat #9 on the dealer's immediate right. This is a 9-handed game. A friend of mine from Houston, Texas named Don Atkins was sitting in Seat #8. Don was not at the table at the time. The small blind, the third player in our hand, was sitting in Seat #7. You were in Seat #5 right in the center of the table. I put up the big blind because Don was taking a walk (either to get more money, go to the bathroom, or whatever). Now maybe I have this all wrong, that is certainly possible. If so, I apologize. I guess in the future, I will simply leave out names when I post hands.

I don't know the name of the third player and I wouldn't post it if I did. I get the impression he is a top notch pro from Atlantic City. He was joking about never coming back to Vegas.


I'm sure Jim open-raised and I 3-bet preflop. I only asked the opponent so y'all would believe me over Jim's notes. I'm less sure about the opponent's position, small or big blind. He and Jim say small blind, whereas I say big blind. My turn check was more questionable if the third player was in the small blind, because he is much too tight to cold call there with 66 or 77.


In discussing the hand, he mentioned that he put me on a possible QQ or JJ since I 3-bet preflop, thus his check-raise on the flop, as I had suggested previously. His tightness combined with his cold call preflop and check-raise on the flop had me a bit spooked, but I really should have been reassured since his tightness suggested he had TT-KK or AQs/AK (or a small chance of AA, made even less likely by the check-raise that would drive out Jim.)

Its all player dependent...and with Jim Brier as the 3 bettor, that would give me thoughts to fold AJ in this spot.


Let me rephrase the hand so I make sure I'm not misunderstanding anything. I'm Abdul with AJ in late position, everyone folds, I raise, SB and BB (both very solid) call.


The flop is A76. It is checked to me, I bet, and I get checkraised by two very solid players.


My first thought on the first checkraise is this : He may very well be checkraising a draw...flush/straight....or may be checkraising a weaker ace...but could be two pair, a set or ace-higher kicker. If it was only him, I'm not too worried with AJ and I'd play the hand out.


My first thought when JB 3 bets : oh crap. he's three betting...what could this mean? a set, two pair? it seems one of them has me beat, and I either have 3 outs or zero outs. Its two bets to me in a pot that has 12 bets, with some chance the SB 4 bets. This no longer seems like a good situation for AJ. How many times have I seen JB three bet without a hand of AQ or better in this spot? After reading his book , would you three bet here? IT seems very unlikely. And that's not even taking into consideration the Small Blind yet.


Yes, I fold AJ. I flip a mental coin with AQ. And I call with AK.


Is my logic flawed?

Why would it be better if you left names out? So when you screw up the position of the players nobody can correct you? You can still give the names. Just make sure you know the poisitions otherwise it confuses everybody. souldn't be that hard since you take notes after every hand you play.