$5 + $.50 SNG HU: Smart Push or Loose Faux Paux

[Desdia72]

my opponent is sitting with 9160 in chips. he is what you would call a tight player that likes to play high % starting hands like A Ks and pocket pairs. the guy busted out two players in a row with pocket 3s that tripped out on the board. HU, i'm raising with 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif3 /images/graemlins/club.gif as the shortstack to get some chips and he's folding. that bring me to the case in point:

sitting with 10 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, blinds 200/400 ante 25 and 4340 in chips. i push all-in preflop (was the first one in) and he calls with A Qo-- ooooppppps /images/graemlins/grin.gif!! *what did i tell you about high % hands? the flop comes 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif-no help. the turn hits 10 /images/graemlins/club.gif- a little hope with a pair. then the river hits K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif for the str8 on the river /images/graemlins/grin.gif!

[durron597]

Man, I think you took Jason's "push any A, any K, any PP, any suited connector" etc. post a bit too seriously. Pushing with 73o is bad, bad, bad, unless the blinds are high enough that posting pot commits you. If that's the case you need lots of luck to win anyway, so don't complain when you lose.

[Cleveland Guy]

Would you like a cookie?

[durron597]

Oh, by the way: what does your girlfriend think of these pushes?

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
Man, I think you took Jason's "push any A, any K, any PP, any suited connector" etc. post a bit too seriously. Pushing with 73o is bad, bad, bad, unless the blinds are high enough that posting pot commits you. If that's the case you need lots of luck to win anyway, so don't complain when you lose.

[/ QUOTE ]

durron, i did'nt push with 7 3o, i pushed with 10 8o. he woke up with one of his high % hands. being that he was a tight player, if i limp with 10 8o, i'm getting raised by his A Qo in the hole.

[Cleveland Guy]

Is there a point to this post? are you looking for advice?

Or just trying to say you made a move and it didn't work out?

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, by the way: what does your girlfriend think of these pushes?

[/ QUOTE ]

folks wanted me to post a hand and what was going through my mind in the play, and you're trying to clown by bring up my girl.

*immediately thinks of naphand kneading me to do the right thing and post a hand, "that's all we ask of you". LMFAO /images/graemlins/grin.gif*

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
Is there a point to this post? are you looking for advice?

Or just trying to say you made a move and it didn't work out?

[/ QUOTE ]

based on my observations of the player and the hands he was prone to play, was the push too extreme? seeing as he called with A Qo, i could'nt see limping or 3X raising as i had done before with small hands.

[Cleveland Guy]

if your pushing that much - he is probably just waiting for you to push when he has a hand.

You fell right into his trap.

[hummusx]

I guess I don't understand the logic of pushing with T8o. Raise to try to take the blinds? Ok. Call? Well, if you are going to play it I'd rather raise but I guess it's ok. Raise? Yuck, what if he has a decent hand?

You say you are worried that if you limp he'll raise you with AQ. Wouldn't that be a good thing? Then you can release this trash and go at him again with something better. Limping or raising with this pre-flop gives him a chance to tell you how good HIS hand is so you don't lose all your chips with junk against a decent hand.

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
if your pushing that much - he is probably just waiting for you to push when he has a hand.

You fell right into his trap.

[/ QUOTE ]

can someone come bust open the cookie jar i got my hand caught in? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[durron597]

Ok, serious post now. If non-push raises were taking down the blinds, why would you push? If your opponent is being really fishy, adapt to take full advantage of his fishiness. I played against one HU opponent that would never raise preflop, never call preflop without a top 25% hand, and would bet the flop if he paired or better and check if he missed. So I just miniraised every hand I was in the SB, checked if he completed (he folded a lot) and bet out minimum every single flop, check fold if he called/raised, and folded if he bet. It didn't take long before I had most of the chips. I couldn't believe how weak/tight he was playing, but there you go. As far as this opponent was playing, if he was laying down to you as often as you said he was, why would you push T8o? You will have plenty of better/easier spots to take his chips when he hands them over to you on a silver platter without you having to put all your chips in the middle.

And the only reason I made the crack about your girlfriend was that I think it's pretty clear that T8o is a terrible hand to push with, especially since you know that he will lay down to smaller raises, yet you did anyway.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
based on my observations of the player and the hands he was prone to play, was the push too extreme? seeing as he called with A Qo, i could'nt see limping or 3X raising as i had done before with small hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

This has got to be one of the most results oriented posts I've ever seen. You don't know what he has when you have to make the decision what to do from the small blind. And if you were actually in the BB (you didn't say), and he raised into you, I think that T8o is a VERY clear fold.

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
based on my observations of the player and the hands he was prone to play, was the push too extreme? seeing as he called with A Qo, i could'nt see limping or 3X raising as i had done before with small hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

This has got to be one of the most results oriented posts I've ever seen. You don't know what he has when you have to make the decision what to do from the small blind. And if you were actually in the BB (you didn't say), and he raised into you, I think that T8o is a VERY clear fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

he was in the BB and you're right...i don't know what he has. we had already played some hands HU to the showdown and he had high cards everytime. the hands i won HU with this guy were crap hands that i was dealt that i made the decision to push with. if i had'nt raise with those hands to push him out, i would'nt have won any at all. obviously if the guy has big cards everytime, he must be getting dealt some cards. whadda do? sit around letting your blinds get eaten away with J /images/graemlins/heart.gif2 /images/graemlins/club.gif or 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

[Cleveland Guy]

If he is as tight as you say he is.

1. A min raise will take down a lot of pots- and any call should be a red flag to you

2. He is probably folding back to you a lot in the SB, so you should be treading water.

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, serious post now. If non-push raises were taking down the blinds, why would you push? If your opponent is being really fishy, adapt to take full advantage of his fishiness. I played against one HU opponent that would never raise preflop, never call preflop without a top 25% hand, and would bet the flop if he paired or better and check if he missed. So I just miniraised every hand I was in the SB, checked if he completed (he folded a lot) and bet out minimum every single flop, check fold if he called/raised, and folded if he bet. It didn't take long before I had most of the chips. I couldn't believe how weak/tight he was playing, but there you go. As far as this opponent was playing, if he was laying down to you as often as you said he was, why would you push T8o? You will have plenty of better/easier spots to take his chips when he hands them over to you on a silver platter without you having to put all your chips in the middle.

And the only reason I made the crack about your girlfriend was that I think it's pretty clear that T8o is a terrible hand to push with, especially since you know that he will lay down to smaller raises, yet you did anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

since we're being serious, regardless of whether 10 8o is a terrible hand to push with, bringing up my girlfriend STILL
has nothing to do with my hand or how terrible it was. the two just don't go together. if you're trying to clown, you're trying to clown...point blank.

i'm not disputing the odds of a hand like 10 8o winning preflop on an all-in push and that there are'nt better hands or spots. you're right.

[Pil Sung Do]

If you're raising standards have fallen this low, you can't be too upset when you get called by a better hand.

I understand that you were short stacked, but since it was obvious that he was waiting for a big hand (or at least above average), pushing all-in with this type of holding is just asking to get lucky or get it over.

If he's going to call with just good holdings, at least wait for something that can win unimproved.

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
If you're raising standards have fallen this low, you can't be too upset when you get called by a better hand.

I understand that you were short stacked, but since it was obvious that he was waiting for a big hand (or at least above average), pushing all-in with this type of holding is just asking to get lucky or get it over.

If he's going to call with just good holdings, at least wait for something that can win unimproved.

[/ QUOTE ]

where'd you get that i was upset about it? it was a crap hand that i decided to push with. nothing to be upset about. i'd call in his position too! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Pil Sung Do]

where'd you get that i was upset about it?

I sometimes use the incorrect word. But your post suggests that you feel you played the hand incorrectly (or are now wondering if you played it incorrectly).

So instead of upset, substitue uneasy.

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
where'd you get that i was upset about it?

I sometimes use the incorrect word. But your post suggests that you feel you played the hand incorrectly (or are now wondering if you played it incorrectly).

So instead of upset, substitue uneasy.

[/ QUOTE ]

actually, i was'nt uneasy either. i felt good with my push feeling that he would be forced to have a good hand to call that many chips and bust me. he did have a good hand and more power to him. i caught a 10 on the turn, could'nt ask for more with my hand. if my 10 stands up, i now have the chiplead in aggressive mode playing against Prince wearing nut-hugging leotards with the @sscheeks out.

[Cleveland Guy]

If you liked your play - knew the odds, and knew why it didn't work out

WHAT WAS THE POST FOR??????????????????????????????????

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
If you liked your play - knew the odds, and knew why it didn't work out

WHAT WAS THE POST FOR??????????????????????????????????

[/ QUOTE ]

i was'nt about how i felt about the play. i wanted other players opinions on the play in that situation against that particular player. y'all answered the question.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
since we're being serious, regardless of whether 10 8o is a terrible hand to push with, bringing up my girlfriend STILL
has nothing to do with my hand or how terrible it was. the two just don't go together. if you're trying to clown, you're trying to clown...point blank.


[/ QUOTE ]

As I said. The third post was serious; I absolutely was clowning around - I don't deny it - before in the second post, but then I made a more serious post. The reason I was clowning around before is because you KNOW that pushing with T8o is a bad move because it's not even 50% against a random hand.

[ QUOTE ]

i'm not disputing the odds of a hand like 10 8o winning preflop on an all-in push and that there are'nt better hands or spots. you're right.

[/ QUOTE ]

What I was trying to say is that there are better ways to exploit a player who has a bigger stack than you HU when you know he will lay down anything that is not a top 10% hand to a smaller raise - and I think you know that too. Which is why most of the replies to this thread are things like "why is this thread here?"

[mackthefork]

My 2 cents for what its worth, sensible answer to semi sensible question, though this thread seems to have gone the way of the Afghan gerbil.

Aggression = good

But as someone already pointed out why push if he was folding to smaller raises, you have more than 10x the BB complete or min raise is more appropriate here, a bet on the flop takes down a small/medium sized pot a lot of the time too here, if he calls you slow down. You got over a 3rd of the chips on the table so you can afford to wait a little while and look for better spot for a push which is as likely to be called at these limits than a small raise (i dunno why though).

Conclusion - Good opportunity to take a 1st wasted by failure to slow down again once you are back in the game with a chance, I do this often.

Regards ML

[Pil Sung Do]

actually, i was'nt uneasy either.

Then there was no reason to post. You posted nothing of interest to the board (other than you're overly aggressive short stacked HU) and are too closed minded to think that you might have played the hand incorrectly.

if my 10 stands up, i now have the chiplead in aggressive mode playing against Prince wearing nut-hugging leotards with the @sscheeks out.

And you bust out 6 hands later when you he catches a couple of good hands in a row.....

[Pil Sung Do]

i wanted other players opinions on the play in that situation against that particular player. y'all answered the question.

You asked for opinions, yet when others gave there opinions you talk as if there opinions are wrong. If you think pushing w/T8 off is good, more power to you.

[Eder]

To me if sb pushes it is sign of weakness...and I dont need AQ to call, I call with any ace,JT, etc etc...I much more worried about standard raise to me from SB...

[mackthefork]

In response I think calling a push with JT is so bad it defies belief, but if it works I can't knock it, I might just as easily push AKo or AA, I can't imagine me pushing a hand that doesn't have JTo as a dog.

Regards ML