Complete-reraising in the SB [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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schubes

08-05-2004, 12:47 PM

I brought this play up in this thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=893737&page=2&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1#893737) because I haven't seen much discussion of limp-reraising here. Here's an example of what I was talking about there.

BB is a bit over-aggressive, and certainly too loose.

PokerRoom 2/4 Hold'em (4 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
2 folds, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 5 BB
Main Pot: 4 BB, won by BB.
Pot 2: 1 BB, returned to BB.

Now I could've taken other possibly better lines like calling down, capping pf, or c/r flop (or folding flop), but these all involve risking more with a very marginal hand. He probably had me beat here, but I felt like he could push me off marginal hands by playing this way.

Next orbit

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
2 folds, Hero completes, BB raises, Hero 3-bets, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero calls.

River: (7 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, BB calls.

Final Pot: 9 BB
Main Pot: 9 BB, between BB and Hero. > Pot won by Hero (9 BB).

Results in white below: 
BB shows Kc 4s (one pair, kings).
Hero shows Ac 8h (one pair, aces).
Outcome: Hero wins 9 BB. 

So I sucked out, but you'll notice that I was correct preflop and got 3 bets in with the better hand.

5 orbits later (5 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
3 folds, Hero completes, BB checks,

If I knew I had to play this for 2 bets, I'd probably fold (remember, he goes too far in hands), but I think it's certainly worth half a bet. I was hoping my earlier complete-reraise would give me cover. If you look at the results it seems that it did.

Flop: (2 SB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, BB calls.

Turn: (2 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls.

River: (6 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, BB calls.

Final Pot: 8 BB
Main Pot: 8 BB, between BB and Hero. > Pot won by Hero (8 BB).

Results in white below: 
BB shows Ad 8d (one pair, eights).
Hero shows 6h 5h (straight, eight high).
Outcome: Hero wins 8 BB.

Guido

08-05-2004, 04:11 PM

I play hand 1 the same way.

I wouldn't limp-raise in hand 2 but since you did, I would play it the same way. And no, you didn't suck out your odds were perfect.

I would play hand 3 the same way.

Guido

schubes

08-05-2004, 04:33 PM

My point was that I don't think I'd be able to complete in Hand 3 if I didn't reraise in Hand 2.

And by "suck out" I just meant I was not the favorite on the flop or turn.

tripdad

08-05-2004, 04:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would play it the same way. And no, you didn't suck out your odds were perfect.

[/ QUOTE ]

please explain this one. one overcard and a double gutshot?

cheers!

tripdad

08-05-2004, 04:50 PM

hand 1: i play the same.

hand 2: waiting for Guido to straighten me out. i would most likely fold to the flop raise since BB just called your preflop 3-bet. makes me believe he has the K.

hand 3: i raise this preflop. otherwise well played. i think you would have gotten a lot more action had you raised preflop.

cheers!

schubes

08-05-2004, 05:05 PM

Yeah I probably should've folded there, but I felt married to my limp-reraise experiment, and my read on him was he is over-aggressive. The previous encounter he pushed me off of a hand I raised preflop, and I didn't want to give up so easily.

My problem with raising preflop in the third hand is that if I win I'm often going to have to win in a showdown. He goes way too far with his hands and a good portion of the time I'll only have 6 high at the river. I don't think I would've gotten more than the extra sb if I raised PF.

The three hands were meant to be taken as a series:
Hand 1 establishes that I am being played back at HU in the blinds, Hand 2 I want to punish him for trying to take the intiative PF, and Hand 3 I am using the threat posed in Hand 2 to play a hand I would've folded if I knew he would raise many hands.

tripdad

08-05-2004, 05:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
My problem with raising preflop in the third hand is that if I win I'm often going to have to win in a showdown. He goes way too far with his hands and a good portion of the time I'll only have 6 high at the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

you know he'll probably call your raise, and you do not mind being 3-bet. 5-6s is better than the random hand. it is also VERY easy to dump if you do not flop favorably. on a flop that hits you like this one, he will not put you on your hand and will likely raise at some point. i do not see the downside.

cheers!

schubes

08-05-2004, 05:31 PM

5-6s is better than the random hand.

PokerStove:

56s: 43.133%
random: 56.867%

And I'll be missing my pair of 6's on the river, times when I have to fold on flop or turn.

cheers! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

(just kidding, you have a good point about the playability but I'd still prefer to keep it to one bet if I can, for the reasons above)

Guido

08-05-2004, 05:32 PM

Yes, about 11 outs getting 6:1 is good enough for me...

Edit: arg thought you were talking about the turn. Yes, the flop call is marginal. You are getting 9:1 on your call. I would say you have 3 aces and a backdoor draw and maybe your 8 is still good. Let's say you have 4 outs. It's close but the implied odds should make up for it and your hand might still be the best hand.

Guido

tripdad

08-05-2004, 06:54 PM

thanks for the odds there...didn't bother to look it up, just assumed. at any rate, do you have any folding equity with this guy? if so, it would mean raise.

cheers!

i realize the 3 hands are to be taken into context when analyzing your play.

naphand

08-06-2004, 04:32 AM

Suck out means you were a big dog and did not have the odds to call/play on. When you have the odds, it's not a suckout regardless of whether you are the favourite or not.

Best to use the same language as everyone else.... /images/graemlins/tongue.gif