I've been trapping alot [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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ddubois

08-05-2004, 05:12 AM

I've been experiementing with trapping alot lately. And with the prototypical LAGs who feel it's their civic duty to bet when checked to, it's really been paying dividends. But I'm worried that I'm starting to go too far with it. Which of these hand do you like, if any?

Hand #1 - 55
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG (t800)
UTG+1 (t775)
UTG+2 (t760)
Hero (t775)
MP2 (t960)
MP3 (t795)
CO (t775)
Button (t775)
SB (t615)
BB (t970)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls t15, Hero calls t15, 4 folds, SB completes, BB checks,

Flop: (t60) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+2 bets t150, Hero calls t150, SB folds, BB folds.

Turn: (t360) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero checks.

River: (t360) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
UTG+2 bets t595 (All-In), Hero calls t595.

Final Pot: t1550
Main Pot: t1550 (t1550), between UTG+2 and Hero.

Hand #2 - 77
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG (t475)
Hero (t1330)
MP1 (t1445)
MP2 (t320)
CO (t1035)
Button (t800)
SB (t1285)
BB (t1310)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG raises to t60, Hero calls t60, 3 folds, Button calls t60, SB calls t45, 1 fold,

Flop: (t270) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB checks, UTG bets t125, Hero calls t125, Button calls t125, SB folds.

Turn: (t645) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
UTG bets t290 (All-In), Hero calls t290, Button folds.

River: (t1225) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t1225
Main Pot: t1225 (t1225), between UTG and Hero.

Hand #3 - 67
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP1 (t1735)
Hero (t740)
MP3 (t800)
CO (t975)
Button (t960)
SB (t578)
BB (t449)
UTG (t889)
UTG+1 (t874)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls t30, UTG+1 calls t30, MP1 calls t30, Hero calls t30, 1 fold, CO calls t30, 2 folds, BB checks,

Flop: (t195) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (6 players)
BB bets t50, UTG calls t50, UTG+1 calls t50, MP1 calls t50, Hero raises to t200, CO calls t200, BB calls t150, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds.

Turn: (t945) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, CO bets t745 (All-In), BB folds, Hero calls t510 (All-In).

River: (t2200) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: t2200
Main Pot: t1965 (t1965), between Hero and CO.
Pot 2: t235 (t235), returned to CO.

Hand #4 - 98
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|saw showdown

Button (t755)
SB (t770)
BB (t770)
UTG (t785)
UTG+1 (t800)
Hero (t800)
MP1 (t800)
MP2 (t740)
MP3 (t800)
CO (t980)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls t15, Hero calls t15, 1 fold, MP2 calls t15, 1 fold, CO calls t15, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks,

Flop: (t90) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, MP2 checks, CO checks.

Turn: (t90) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (6 players)
SB bets t75, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls t75, MP2 folds, CO folds.

River: (t240) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
SB bets t175, Hero raises to t350, SB raises to t680 (All-In), Hero calls t330.

Final Pot: t1600
Main Pot: t1600 (t1600), between SB and Hero.

mistrpug

08-05-2004, 08:56 AM

I don't like #4 at all. You can't give someone with two diamonds a free shot to beat you.

Same thing with the 2 spades on number 2, though at least you have a lot of outs to the full.

I personally don't have any problems with the other ones. Did you win all 4?

Cleveland Guy

08-05-2004, 09:06 AM

The plays are fine - but I'm guessing you didn't win every one of them. In each case the other player has a chance to make a better hand

#1 - straight to your trips
#2 - Flush to your trips
#3 - Full House to your straight
#4 - AQ or Q9 to your 98 Straight.

This is what can be dangerous about trapping - you give them free or cheap chances to make their outs when they are behind.

So while I don't mind the trapping plays- think of what an opponent might have slow played and suddenly be betting all in with.

If your gonna slow play - have to know when to release.

PrayingMantis

08-05-2004, 10:43 AM

Slowplaying a set on a drawing board against multiple opponents is generally a mistake. It is a volnerable hand. Straights are, of course, vulnerable too. As a matter of fact, sometimes sets are "better" than straights, in the sense that you have more redraws against the flush.

Hand 1 - raise UTG+1, don't let others in.

Hand 2 - raise UTG, again, narrow the field, and make draws pay, especially if you can't let go of your set once the flush card hits.

Hand 3 - this is actually the only hand where slowplaying on the flop does make sense. You have a pretty well-hidden straight, there is no flush draw, and only a paired board will be somewhat scary for you. So I don't see why you slowplay the other hands, and raise here.

Hand 4 - there are 6 opponents in the pot, and a flush draw. Slowplaying is not a good option.

I hope this helps. There are times to slowplay, if the field is narrowed, you know you are against a *certain* very specific aggressive opponent, etc. Otherwise, bet your good but vulnerable hands. It is definitely worth it, even if you sometimes don't get the action you hope for.

Only my opinion.

RoyalSampler

08-05-2004, 01:45 PM

Hand 4- I think there is an alternate way of contemplating this hand. At this point, lets say if you bet, most likely the pot is yours. So you are risking 90 of your money by checking. There is a 19% chance of a flush card. So in an extremely simplified scenario, you should get a 100:81 return on your 90 by checking. But the difficuly here is you need to conviction to laydown if the flush card comes.
I think by feigning weakness you certainly stand to have +ve EV vs the bet. But to complicate the matter there are a lot of straight scare cards and pairing of the board puts you in a tough spot. So more than half of the deck could be poisonous:
3*7
3*10
3*9
3*J
4*Q
4*K
4*A
+4 remaining uncounted flush cards
= 28/47

In such a case you would now need a 47/28 return on 90 if the next card comes up clean. Well I think by showing absolute disregard for the draws you will get people betting enough at you with their hands to make that and more. So I think checking here COULD be more +ve than betting. But I have only very rarely actually checked a straight with a flush draw and never with more than 3 opponents. I suppose a good question to compare the two approached would be, which holdings are we now more likely to be against in the check scenario:
A missed-flush bluff
A lot of weaker single pair scenarios

Where as a pot bet would have would generally scare such hands out. This idea does come down to the question... can you fold if the scare cards come? Final though, maybe betting half the pot is the best option? If you get more than 1 caller you are getting the odds. Ugh, so many possibilities. Thoughts PLEASE!

PrayingMantis

08-05-2004, 02:16 PM

Good points, but I think you are complicating it too much.

Hero has *5* opponents in this pot, 2 of them with practically random hands. Checking this flop leaves WAY too much room for all sorts of garbage flush draws to improve, not to talk about 2 pairs, and KQ, which will hit its nut straight with an A or 9. There are other higher straight draws. These are all possible hands, it's an unraised pot - very important factor here.

Another thing is that by betting (or raising in other situations), other players (that will call/raise themselves) will have more invested in the pot, and so will be less ready or capable to let it go, even with more marginal hands than otherwise. If you keep the pot very small, by checking, others will get out pretty easily if they don't improve by much. There are more reasons not to slowplay, but the danger in giving free cards here is the most important. I fully understand why there's such a strong tendency to slowplay in many situations, especially if few other times people folded to your bets/raises. And sometimes it does seem that slowplaying is profitable. However, the majority of the time, certainly in a multy-way unraised-pot with a drawing board, it is a mistake.

MercTec

08-05-2004, 02:42 PM

I agree with Mantis on all points here. The only hand that made sense to slowplay is Hand #3. I generally don't like slowplaying unless the flop is a rainbow and/or somewhat uncoordinated. The purpose of slowplaying IMO is to give you're opponent a chance to catch up when he thinks everyone is weak and bet his weak draws if he gets some help on the turn. When there are flush or straight draws available, you are hurting yourself by giving them a cheap or free card. Its great flopping a made hand, so bet it strong...winning a small pot is better than losing a big one.

poolshark

08-05-2004, 03:31 PM

In my experience - trapping is generally a bad idea BY CHECKING. On the other hand - trapping by making a bet or mini raise is much better - yo are generally against a made hand but lower than yours and the chances of the other person having a draw is reduced.

I would really love to know what were the results

WarmonkEd

08-05-2004, 03:41 PM

I think they're all ok except #4, I would've raised the turn in that one.

What limit is this?

ddubois

08-05-2004, 04:38 PM

These were all 10/$1.

In the past I've been dutifully protecting my hand - if there's two of a suit on a board, I go nuts and bet a bunch to crush implied odds. And the result has been that more often than not, when I hit a set, I win the hand with a flop raise and do not extract the amount I mathematically needed to justify my pre-flop call. I had a field of six fold to my half-pot bet holding a set of kings on the flop last week... that really hurt. It was rainbow KTx too.

Hand #1 UTG+2 had 33 /images/graemlins/smile.gif
Hand #2 UTG had KsTs /images/graemlins/frown.gif
Hand #3 CO had A8 /images/graemlins/smile.gif
Hand #4 SB had J5 /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I surely was frowning when the 3rd spade came in hand #2, but I was more worried about button having the flush than the preflop-raising UTG. I figure a PFR will dutifully bet any overcards in that situaiton, so his flop bet I didn't take seriously, and was in fact hoping he had an overpair or TP so he'd bet again. It didn't seem reasonable to give him credit for a flush draw at that time. And he didn't get a free card because he charged himself. Would he have folded if I made it 290 back to him? I'm guessing no, but I can't say that for sure; 290 would have given him incorrect odds, but he probably felt desparate, short-stacked and pot-committed. Button having the flush would have really made my play look like a glaring mistake. And in an FTOP sense, I played incorrectly, which I'm never happy about.

But look at those other hands. People overplay so horribly at this level post-flop, why not exploit my under-touted showdown equity? You can't become the chip leader by stealing blinds at 11$, you get called too much. You need to win big pots to cruise into the money and then proceed to bully once there. That's how it feels to me lately. Maybe I'll get stung a few more times and realize the errors of my trapping ways.

Eder

08-05-2004, 05:48 PM

I trap often as well...but often need laydown good hands I could have won with preflop/on the flop...
The fact is that often I can take a players stack on the river compared to winning a few bets on the flop...
at higher buy in levels I'm sure slowplaying is poor idea, but at my levels a few nicely timed slowplays that work push me into the $$...