Drawing out question

[Cerril]

Okay, we all know that the elation that comes from drawing out on someone, especially with an improbable draw (my favorites are when you start with second or third pair, A kicker and end up with the nut flush, or when you've got a good straight draw and end up with top two pair), is entirely disproportionate to the feeling you get when you beat someone who missed their draw. It's good for the psyche to take one back.

I've often, in describing poker to friends and family, pointed at the flush draw as one of the biggest culprits behind swings. You take a bet that's 4 to 1, and maybe you're getting 6 to 1 or better odds. You'll do it every time, every day of the week, but you can still lose a whole lot of money seeing it not come through on the river, which happens most of the time. Simple to anyone who's played any poker at all, but an odd proposition to other people (people who wouldn't wager $50 to win $400 on '6' on the roll of a die, basically). When it comes through, though, it's an amazing feeling. Even more because you knew you weren't the stupid fish that you might feel like after the tenth time in a row your flush -didn't- hit.

So my question is half psychology and half probability, but more personal. What sort of draws will you chase for a bet or two on the flop, or the turn?

For me if I flop an inside straight and a backdoor flush, I'll chase if I'm willing to bet those are good hands. I'm sure if I had a better grasp on odds and was a whole lot better at reading I'd be more confident about the 'right' answer, but I'm more curious if there are any draws you'll chase just for your own mental health (not to mention table image, since you only have to show those draws you caught, not the ones that got away). Anyway, I think that's enough history for the question, what about you guys?

[SevenStuda]

I don't understand this 'elation' you feel from drawing out on someone. Why does it make you feel so good knowing that you had the worst of it, put money into the pot when you were dogging, and got lucky? Seems like the more often you find yourself in this situation the poorer your overall results will be. How do you feel when someone draws out on you?

-Dimitri

[Cerril]

Depends on their hand. Usually it just helps me get a read on them. Now don't misunderstand, I don't make stupid decisions when I can avoid them. I don't call three bets cold with 52o (or suited for that matter!) preflop, and I certainly don't regret tossing away 43o even when the flop shows up A25 and there's a huge stack of betting as loose players with AKo, 55, and A2s get into a war.

The elation I'm talking about is the completion of a good thing. Most of the examples I gave were, I felt, +EV. The inside straight/backdoor flush thing was loose, I'll admit, but I knew I had some pretty wicked implied odds and was all but certain this guy (these guys) had a hand that couldn't beat a straight or a flush without a miracle card. Obviously, for me to be getting sufficient odds with the worse chance of making the best hand someone else was by far taking the worst of it. And if I recall in some of the more notable cases it was several people who'd donated the money, either preflop or still in the hand.

Even so, if you had that dice roll situation I proposed when the 6 did come up you'd feel a whole lot better about -that- particular win than the other guy would every time you rolled a 1-5 (even if he's somehow getting paid better than even as well from an outside source). More, maybe, than five times as good? There's something about a longshot, even a good bet that's a longshot, coming through (heck, maybe it IS just me here - me and the fish).

So I'm not advocating making fishy, loose-passive moves here. And I'm sure anyone who is or thinks they are a great player is going to say that it's silly to ever make a move where you aren't clearly getting the best of the situation. That's why the post is in psychology. The two reasons I'm asking about criteria for apparent suckouts (and a lot of the time it's because you got stuck with a good/decent/marginal draw with miserable cards from freeplay in the BB, though obviously the person you draw out against can excuse your actions - hardly fun) are mental well-being (plugging one leak with a smaller one) and table image (like the caught bluff, you can make up lost value by getting additional calls with your great cards, even when you show down the winning hand - people will peg you as a chaser).

[Joe Tall]

What sort of draws will you chase for a bet or two on the flop, or the turn?

The ones that I'm getting correct odds from the pot to do so.

Is there any other way?

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Cerril]

Wow, does nobody here ever play a little looser than their game for any reason? We seem to have camps, people who will discuss sitting down at a table and throwing away a couple hundred bucks playing the maniac and people who play ABC like robots and can't answer a fun question with anything but a rote answer! Think of the image!

(not picking on you, Joe, just hoped I'd get a little bit looser replies)

[Joe Tall]

people who play ABC like robots and can't answer a fun question with anything but a rote answer! Think of the image!

There are much better ways to shift your image than chasing long shots without odds. Ways that are closer to EV neutral then severely negative. Such as raising J9s preflop in LP after a bunch of limpers, etc. There are many others.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[StellarWind]

I love hitting longshot draws. It is a great feeling to win a big pot with a lucky card. Nevertheless, it's really simple for me:

2 BB/hour online doesn't leave much room to indulge my feelings.

I always try to make the best play.

[bygmesterf]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, does nobody here ever play a little looser than their game for any reason? We seem to have camps, people who will discuss sitting down at a table and throwing away a couple hundred bucks playing the maniac and people who play ABC like robots and can't answer a fun question with anything but a rote answer! Think of the image!

(not picking on you, Joe, just hoped I'd get a little bit looser replies)

[/ QUOTE ]

The way I see it, if i am going to influence my image via card play, then I want plays, with maximum varience, zero expectancy. In your typical loose game, long shot draws fit the bill. But in playing long shots, you have to remember to.

<ul type="square">
Not bluff when you miss your draw
Bring attention to the fact that you played a weird hand.
Dump your hand if the situation goes sour in anyway.
[/list]

Playing loose with draws rarely costs more than a fraction of a bet and it does get you involed in more pots. But IMHO the key thing is to get maximum advertising value out of it, by constantly reminding the table about how loose you are.

[Dov]

[ QUOTE ]
and I certainly don't regret tossing away 43o even when the flop shows up A25 and there's a huge stack of betting as loose players with AKo, 55, and A2s get into a war.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you crazy? You have the nuts here! You should be capping not folding!

[Dov]

Many of us here don't play for 'kicks'. Putting your money in there when you don't have the best of it will not put food on the table.

Personally, if I even think that I might feel like doing something like that, It's either to the play tables or the movies. Bankrolls are just too fragile to be thrown around like that.

I made that mistake once and will never do it again. It took me almost 3 months to recover from 1 night of 'fun' in a B&amp;M no limit game where I was just BS'ing.

[Cerril]

Um, maybe I should craft my examples a bit better in the future? /images/graemlins/blush.gif I'm looking at my post and wondering what I was smoking when I made that. Uh, yeah. I meant I wouldn't have a problem throwing away a hand with 4 outs in a situation where there are 3 other people willing to bet a lot on it.

[Cerril]

Thank you! That's more or less the sort of post I was looking for. You phrased my feelings well enough that I think if I'd said that from the beginning (with the added psychological boost) I wouldn't have taken so many negative replies (except the one goof)

It's sort of funny how I can go from one thread where I'm saying that I might sacrifice +EV on a regular basis to safeguard a more limited bankroll (provided I'm making a larger profit at the higher limit) and in another I'm saying that I'll take close to 0EV moves with high variance now for both mental health and table image reasons.