Moving up limits

[Cerril]

This is a theory question, to me. Maybe psychology but I think it fits better here.

Alright, let's say I'm playing decent poker at the 5/10 level and I want to move up. And for the sake of argument let's say I've increased my bankroll to the point where I can safely consider the move (I haven't, so this is a ways off)

I'm at a turning point right now, as I see it. 5/10 is the lowest limit where one can make a decent amount of money (I was going to say 'living' but I'll stay away from that term) and close to the highest level where I'll be unlikely to find very high level players (on a regular basis). Still with me? If I'm wrong about either assumption please correct me.

So in order to move up I don't just need to keep playing a good game, I need to change up my game (or at least play at a substantially better level). When I change I can expect the competition to increase in skill drastically, in a way that the change to 5/10 wasn't - or at least didn't seem to.

So how can I be prepared to do this? Are there any steps I can take other than to just hone my game to the best I think it can be then move up? Should I expect to just take a huge loss the first time I move into a new limit, each time from here on out until I adapt - trial by fire sort of thing?

Thanks for any advice. Unless I hit an amazing run or get more dedicated to playing hours I won't be using it in the next month or so but I'm always in the market for information.

[SevenStuda]

Poker is poker, if you play well, you'll be rewarded regarless of the stakes, if you want to move up, don't be a pussy, take a chance.

-Dimitri

[Louie Landale]

As you move up you can expect the NATURE of the game to change dramatically but the SKILL of the opponents will only increase noticeably. In your example you can expect a lot more weak-tight folks in the 10/20 than in the 5/10 and that's a dramatic change, even if these players only do a little better overall than their typical 5/10 counterparts.

For these weak-tight folks you need to semi-steal more often but put on the brakes when you do get called. In the 5/10 you may bluff less often but can often continue the bluff on the turn since there are a fair number of "call one time on the flop" folks.

The major skill difference between 5/10 and 10/20 is that the 10/20 folks can and do reasonably accurately put you on a hand. This will let them save and gain a bet here or there. Some of them can and will use this information to manipulate you. Its also true that since they play more reasonably and therefore more predictably, You can and should reasonably accurately put THEM on specific hands, a LOT more often than in the 5/10. Trust me, there are times when the opponent calls and then calls and you are sure its AJ. You need to use that information to manipulate THEM.

Moving on up to the 15/30 you'll find a lot more raising. Fasten your seat belt.

But to answer the question you "should" have asked, try this: play regularly at the 5/10 and keep your eye open for a "good" 10/20 game. Besides then obvious "lots of calling, little betting and raising", one key feature of a "good" game for you is if you can often put players on hands after the flop betting is over. When you see such a game then play in it. You can also play 10/20 while waiting for your 5/10 seat. You'll be a 5/10 player that sometimes plays 10/20. After a while, maybe 3 months, you'll discover that you are a 10/20 player willing to play in good 5/10 games.

- Louie

Here's an example of hand reading. A loose player called early, the tight player called in middle, loose called late, I raised on the button and 5 of us took the flop. The tight player knows, correctly, that I raise quite a bit on the button. But he doesn't know that I know to be careful when HE, the tight caller, is in. Anyway, flop is Kxy. He check-raises me and I call heads up. z on turn, he bets and I raise. River is a J. He checks and I show down my losing AK to his, no surprise, winning KJ. I figured he may not play KT nor a pair of xx in middle but that he would raise PF with KQ and of course AK. I figured (correctly) that this player would NOT raise with a K and bad kicker, such as K9s. So what's left? KJ.

And that's where I sort of put him ON the flop and was pretty much confirmed on the turn. Tough to do that against the loose players. Good read. And that's fairly routine.

[dogmeat]

Since you aren't talking about making a living, I don't know how much you need to make to be considered "a decent amount of money". Unless you are playing just a single game, there is plenty to be made at as low as $2/4. If you play even two tables of $2/4, you should make at least 2.5/BB/hour per table - that's $20/hour. If you play three tables, $30. For $3/6 you should be able to make at least 2BB/hour and playing two tables will return $24/hour with three tables paying $36.

Our local 2+2 hero, David Ross, was making 1.8BB/hour at the $5/$10 as what has to be considered a very good player. Two tables there returns $36/hour. Looking at your possible win, you might not do quite as well, thus I believe the $2/4 and $3/6 will return as much or more to you as you move along in ability.

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[Cerril]

I'm not a big fan of multitabling, my game suffers a lot when I play multiple tables. I might be right to change that and try to just get a better ABC game that I can play blind against several tables, that seeming to be the most profitable way to play at the moment.

Still when I made my post I was working with an assumption I should have discarded - that 1BB/hr was how I should think of my profitability, so 3/6 is $6/hr and 5/10 is $10/hr.

Really, I should be doubling those numbers for online games provided I'm a decent player. So 3/6 becomes the lowest level where one can make 'a decent amount of money' (i.e. a single table hourly equivalent to an entry-level desk job)

I'm not sure if this post contributes anything to my original question (I'm really happy with the answers I've been getting too), but now I'm starting to see why the quality of play is so much higher at the lower levels online.