Stars $20&2 - What would you do? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

TexInAtl

08-05-2004, 01:40 AM

I made my highest finish today in an online MTT finishing 3rd in today's $20&2 on Pokerstars. I'm a little embarrased to admit this, but this forum has been instrumental in getting my game to this level.

There were a couple hands that I felt were key hands in this tournament, and I wanted to find out "what would you do?" I will post thoughts and results later.

Hand 1:

There has been so much discussion about AK on this forum that I thought this hand would be interesting.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed)

UTG+1 (t440)
MP1 (t1320)
MP2 (t2310)
MP3 (t1940)
CO (t1690)
Button (t2360)
Hero (t1620)
BB (t630)
UTG (t1190)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 raises to t60, MP2 calls t60, MP3 raises to t180, CO folds, Button raises to t2360, Hero ?

Tosh

08-05-2004, 01:42 AM

Super-quick fold.

TexInAtl

08-05-2004, 01:43 AM

Hand 2:

What do you do?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (8 handed)

SB (t2290)
BB (t3411)
UTG (t2970)
UTG+1 (t4290)
MP1 (t3752)
Hero (t1465)
CO (t4325)
Button (t1547)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 raises to t450, Hero calls t450, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds.

Flop: (t975) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)

Tosh

08-05-2004, 01:48 AM

Move in preflop. His raise is 9BB he will normally call you.

TexInAtl

08-05-2004, 01:49 AM

Hand 3:

Anyone think I could have gotten more out of this hand?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (9 handed)

CO (t4030)
Button (t2986)
SB (t4475)
BB (t2799)
UTG (t2772)
UTG+1 (t1650)
Hero (t2690)
MP2 (t8975)
MP3 (t3769)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, Hero raises to t200, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB raises to t300, Hero calls t100.

Flop: (t650) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
BB bets t250, Hero raises to t500, BB calls t250.

Turn: (t1650) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t1000, BB folds.

Final Pot: t2650

Nepa

08-05-2004, 01:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm a little embarrased to admit this, but this forum has been instrumental in getting my game to this level.

[/ QUOTE ]

What are you some sort of tough guy that has to learn every himself? lol, congrat on the finish!

Tosh

08-05-2004, 01:56 AM

Make 300 your standard raise, not 200. Make a bigger raise on the flop too.

TexInAtl

08-05-2004, 01:58 AM

I meant that I'm embarrased to admit that 3rd is my biggest finish. I have made it to few final tables before, but usually so short stacked that I didn't really have a chance.

Using the knowledge gained from this forum, I actually made it to the final table with a good chance to win. If not for a complete brain fart, I might have had a really good shot at 1st and definately 2nd.

Thanks Nepa

TexInAtl

08-05-2004, 02:07 AM

I feel like I made 1 mistake this whole tournament. Based on these statistics, anyone wanna guess how many chips my mistake cost me?

300 hands played and saw flop:
- 7 times out of 39 while in small blind (17%)
- 13 times out of 39 while in big blind (33%)
- 26 times out of 222 in other positions (11%)
- a total of 46 times out of 300 (15%)

Pots won at showdown - 12 out of 13 (92%)
Pots won without showdown - 28

GoldenHorde

08-05-2004, 02:12 AM

Hand 3 - While a great flop for you is so full of draws you need to try and take it down right then instead of pricing him in and risking getting busted.

0evg0

08-05-2004, 03:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Pots won at showdown - 12 out of 13 (92%)

[/ QUOTE ] Very nice. Unfortunately we already know what that one loss meant...

Congrats on a job well done.

Dentist

08-05-2004, 07:48 AM

12 of 13 at showdown??????/

Someone won all their coinflips, possibly delivered a bad beat and definitely didn't get sucked out on....

Get used to it... this is damn near what it takes to finish high.... there is so much damn LUCK in these things... they're TOUGH.

esknights

08-05-2004, 08:58 AM

Very much agree on Hand 1. FOLD

esknights

08-05-2004, 08:59 AM

Would have definitely pushed it in preflop - no decision to be made on flop for hand 2

Ian J

08-05-2004, 12:19 PM

Tex,

Nice job. I was at the other table of the final 2 tables. I recognized your name and it was cool to see that another 2+2er was doing well. Unfortunately, I raised QQ and ran into 77 /images/graemlins/wink.gif and went broke in 10th place. Congrats on the finish, I'm sure you'll have many more.

durron597

08-05-2004, 12:42 PM

Well, that's why Phil Hellmuth says he lays down QQ to 77. Duh!!!

pipes

08-05-2004, 01:40 PM

Would a smooth call possibly make sense here? Opponent might come back betting more on the Turn, maybe putting him on a flush draw or Ace with a low kicker. Then put in a big riase.

Vuron00

08-05-2004, 01:48 PM

Congrats on the finish...

I didn't realize that you were on this board. I believe that we played quite a few SnG's together yesterday. I really hope that you were in the four in a row that I won.. just kidding.

Congrats on the finish. I went out of that tourney the last hand before the first break with AK vs KK.

TexInAtl

08-05-2004, 02:04 PM

If you said fold, you were absolutely correct. It blows my mind the # of people that get AK and see AA. I personally don't push with AK unless the situation dictates it.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed)

UTG+1 (t440)
MP1 (t1320)
MP2 (t2310)
MP3 (t1940)
CO (t1690)
Button (t2360)
Hero (t1620)
BB (t630)
UTG (t1190)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 raises to t60, MP2 calls t60, MP3 raises to t180, CO folds, Button raises to t2360, Hero folds, BB calls t600 (All-In), MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls t1760 (All-In).

Flop: (t5065) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: (t5065) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players, 2 all-in)

River: (t5065) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: t5065
Main Pot: t2025 (t2025), between MP3, Button and BB. > Pot won by Button (t2025).
Pot 2: t2620 (t2620), between MP3 and Button. > Pot won by Button (t2620).
Pot 3: t420 (t420), returned to Button.

Results below: 
BB shows Ac Qs (one pair, queens).
MP3 shows Kh Ks (one pair, kings).
Button shows Jc Js (three of a kind, jacks).
Outcome: Button wins t5065.

TexInAtl

08-05-2004, 02:26 PM

This one was a little tricky. With my read of this player, I felt that this player would make this same raise with AK, AQ, or possibly AJ as well as any PP 10s or better. (9BBs is an unusally big raise though) I usually don't like to push pre-flop with KK because if an A flops I can still get away from the hand. I'll put my thought process inline.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (8 handed)

SB (t2290)
BB (t3411)
UTG (t2970)
UTG+1 (t4290)
MP1 (t3752)
Hero (t1465)
CO (t4325)
Button (t1547)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 raises to t450, Hero calls t450, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds.

Flop: (t975) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Oh crap, an A did flop. I wait for a BIG bet.

MP1 checks
Check? That's unusual. If he's got Ax, wouldn't he try to take the pot there? Maybe he's going for a check raise?
Hero bets t300, MP1 calls t300
Smooth call a 1/3 pot bet? Now, I'm even more confused. At this point, I really think I'm being trapped.

Turn: (t1575) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero checks.
Not going to fall into his trap.

River: (t1575) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
MP1 bets t300
I have t715 left. The t300 bet confuses me even more. If I am being trapped, why doesn't he put me all-in?

Hero calls t300. Thinking that this will not end my tournament, I make a crying call.

Final Pot: t2175
Main Pot: t2175 (t2175), between MP1 and Hero. > Pot won by Hero (t2175).

Results in white below: 
MP1 shows Js Jc (one pair, jacks).
Hero shows Kc Kd (one pair, kings).
Outcome: Hero wins t2175.

MLG

08-05-2004, 02:30 PM

I hate how you played this hand.

1: what reason can you possibly have for not moving in preflop.

2: When he checks you make a bet that is a third of your stack get called, and are convinced your trapped, and proceed to call off almost half your remaining stack on the river. If you think you are getting trapped fold on the river, if you think you're ahead fire the rest of your stack in on the turn. More importantly....

Move in on the freakin flop.

TexInAtl

08-05-2004, 02:58 PM

Ok. I'm not a math wiz, so I would appreciate it if someone would show me the math on this. Is everyone under the impressing that KK is a get double or get broke hand? If that is the case, then I can understand why moving in PF is the correct play here. My table image was very tight. Would you call all-in with JJ if you have a tight player to your left move in over the top of your raise?

Why not move in on the freakin flop? Because there's an A out there! If you move in with KK everytime an A flops, only two things are going to happen. Either you'll take the pot there, or you'll get called with an A and be close to dead.

Why did I call nearly half my stack off on the river? Because it doesn't end my tournament! Granted t415 is not much to play with when the blinds are 25/50, but it is still possible to rebuild. Once all your chips are gone, you can't rebuild. In retrospect, the fact that vilian DIDN'T put me all-in on the river should have been a good indication that he did not have an A, but hind sight is always 20/20.

Does anyone else agree with at least part of this? Or does everyone think I played this hand poorly?

Roman

08-05-2004, 03:01 PM

you are playing on party... NO ONE, including myself is gonna lay down JJ to you getting those odds.

MLG

08-05-2004, 03:08 PM

Point 1: Most players aren't going to notice your image, and I would bet you would have gotten a call with JJ there. A better player might not call, but there is nothing to suggest that this is a better player, and in fact a good deal to suggest that he is a weak player (he raised to 450 when the BB was 50).

Point 2: I believe I suggested moving-in on the turn (if not that's what I meant to say). You are right, if you move in on the flop you will only get called when you are beaten. By betting here, you will still fold worse hands usually (77, 88, 99) and when you are called you will not get any information. So, checking the flop behind him is clearly better at this point. This might enduce a bluff on the turn (which you are clearly willing to call, since you called the river bet).

Point 3: You called because it doesn't end your tournament?? I don't quite understand that logic. If you checked the turn to enduce a river bluff then great, but you checked the turn because you thought he was trapping, so I don't quite see why you reversed your conclusion.

I don't think you have any good turn or river palys mainly because I hate the flop and preflop decisions. This is actually an excellent example of why calling a 3rd of your stack off preflop is inadvisable, it makes it very very difficult to play the later streets.

gergery

08-05-2004, 03:21 PM

Agree with movein preflop.

If you think he has an ace, fold.

if you think he doesn't, check/call to give QQ/99 a chance to bluff you out. Free cards are unlikely to hurt you.

his overbet preflop as bigstack says weak hand to me.

gergery

08-05-2004, 03:22 PM

I put your opponent on AK here at least 80% of time, but probably still fold as its not worth a risk when wrong.

Vuron00

08-05-2004, 03:36 PM

I understand and agree with most of your play. It DOES seem that most of the advice on this site does involve the "all or nothing" concept.

I think you were well within your right to not go all-in preflop or postflop for the reasons you mentioned. This early in the tournament, you could easily build your stack back up if you had to fold to an Ace.

Just keep in mind that although there are a lot of great players or this site, most of the guys here will never make a final table of a large MTT.

A big reason for this is that guys are too willing to risk all of their chips in borderline situations.

Tosh

08-05-2004, 03:44 PM

You need to make the push everytime, get over seeing an ace.

gergery

08-05-2004, 03:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Point 2: I believe I suggested moving-in on the turn

Point 3: You called because it doesn't end your tournament?? I don't quite understand that logic. If you checked the turn to enduce a river bluff then great, but you checked the turn because you thought he was trapping, so I don't quite see why you reversed your conclusion.

I don't think you have any good turn or river play

[/ QUOTE ]

MLG rocks the house, but I'm going to disagree here. If he doesn't have an ace, then he is drawing very thin so a freecard doesn't hurt you much, and you are better off check/calling a his KQs or JJ bluff here, as he will feel his preflop raise can represent an ace.

I think calling the river is fine with the following logic. You figure you are behind X% (say 40%) of time, but you are ahead to a JJ/KQs type hand Y% (say 60%) of the time. Pot is Z amount of chips (say 1200), so if y% (60) times Z chips (1200, which equals 720) is more than your call amount (300) then its good call. Your read will never be 100% accurate, it just helps you determine what % to assign to X% and y%. Tex's play indicates he thought there was enough chance O was bluffing to make the call correct, even tho the stated logic seems a bit off.

Good plays on the turn/river are 1) fold if he has an ace, 2) check/call if he doesn't, since the chances he bluffs to represent an ace after preflop raise are worth the downside that he catches a two outer J to beat you. Raising is only good if a weak ace might fold, but with this much money and Tex as shortstack, i don't see that happening.

--Greg

MLG

08-05-2004, 10:55 PM

I think we are not disagreeing. Checking the flop is the betterplay, but once he bets the flop he needs to push on the turn. If he then checks the turn he sets up a situation on the river where he creates a very difficult decision on the river. I agree calling the river is ok if he was trying to enduce a bluff, but after claiming he checked the turn because he was afraid of a monster, then the river bet shouldn't change anything. I think we see the hand the same way here.

MLG

08-05-2004, 10:56 PM

Most of us will never make that final table of a big buy-in big even, but it has nothing to do with the way we do or don't protect our stack.

Tosh

08-05-2004, 10:58 PM

One of the worst posts I have read today, utter rubbish. If you think holding a pair of kings preflop is a borderline situation you have a lot to learn.

Vuron00

08-06-2004, 09:24 AM

I wasn't referring to this specific example as being borderline, but as a general way of thinking for most of the advice on this site.

There are 2 differing thoughts in mainstream poker. There is the side that you've taken that is to get your chips in the pot and hope that your hand holds up. There is nothing wrong with this, and is how most guys play.

Then, there are the players who prefer to play a safer preflop game and who have confidence in their ability to outplay their opponents after the flop. The 2 best examples that I can think of are Phil Hellmouth and Dewey Tomko.

Its hard to argue with Phil's tournament success. If you go through a hand history of one of Phil's tournaments, you will very rarely find an instance where he puts all his chips at risk... and even more rare is when he does it preflop.

Just different playing styles... to each his own. That's what makes the game fun.

gergery

08-06-2004, 10:36 AM

I think check-calling on turn and river is the right play when you don't put him on ace.

because the chance he will bluff with a JJ hand is higher than the chance he'll outdraw you on your check. You may also lose less when he has a weak ace and if afraid you have a better one.

I don't see pushing as good, even tho you might get a weak ace to fold, and it stops a potential outdraw by JJ type hand.

--Greg

tpir90036

08-06-2004, 11:40 AM

why are you flat calling pre-flop for almost a third of your chips with the second best hand in the game?

Tosh

08-06-2004, 12:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Then, there are the players who prefer to play a safer preflop game and who have confidence in their ability to outplay their opponents after the flop. The 2 best examples that I can think of are Phil Hellmouth and Dewey Tomko.

[/ QUOTE ]

Online the stacks simply aren't deep enough, it doesn't matter how good you are, you can't outplay your opponents enough to outweigh decent sized edges. Phil Helmuth would have to adjust his strategy for optimal online results.

SossMan

08-06-2004, 12:31 PM

I understand and agree with most of your play. It DOES seem that most of the advice on this site does involve the "all or nothing" concept.

.....I think you were well within your right to not go all-in preflop....

When you have a raise in front of you for a third of your stack and you hold KK with players behind you to act...tell me why pushing in is more risky than calling? If you can't answer that, then you shouldn't be posting advice.

Just keep in mind that although there are a lot of great players or this site, most of the guys here will never make a final table of a large MTT.

Not to brag, but, most of us already have. Multiple times. Additionally, most of the advice from the frequent posters on this board is nearly verbatim from a guy named Greg "Fossilman" Raymer. I'm pretty sure he has won some large MTT...can't remember which one, though..maybe someone else can fill me in. Better yet, google his name.

A big reason for this is that guys are too willing to risk all of their chips in borderline situations.

I would argue that this style is MORE not LESS of a factor of getting to and winning a large field MTT.

Also,
Let me know how getting all the chips in w/ KK preflop is a "borderline" situation.

Try thinking about what you say before you say it next time.

-SossMan

SossMan

08-06-2004, 12:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Its hard to argue with Phil's tournament success. If you go through a hand history of one of Phil's tournaments, you will very rarely find an instance where he puts all his chips at risk... and even more rare is when he does it preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can gaurantee you that Phil would push here. Dewey would push here. Paul Phillips would push here. Phil Ivey would push here.
This play has everything to do with stack size and not with "conservative tournament strategy".

Vuron00

08-06-2004, 02:04 PM

Soss.. you really missed my disclaimer at the beginning.

I said that we weren't talking about this particular hand, but the overall advice.

Now... this hand... Of course, going over the top preflop with KK against an overbet is the right thing to do. Just take a pill and calm down.

The deep stack comment was a good one, and you do have a good point, but postplop play is still a very big factor in these tournaments.

Now... you and I both know that most of the guys on here have never made a final table. Sure, some have made a few and some have made a bunch, but they are in the vast minority.

TexInAtl

08-06-2004, 08:05 PM

Per Soss's instructions, I've thought a lot about what I want to say here before I say it.

First of all, I'm strong enough to admit when I made a mistake, and I believe that my mistake here was not recognizing that the 9BB raise was a weak player trying to protect a hand that I believe most would agree needs to be protected. However, wouldn't the same weak player make the same raise with other hands such as AJ or A10? While we're on the subject, can you really predict what a weak player is going to play with? As the tournament progresses into later rounds, the play becomes more predictable because the weaker players get knocked out.

Now, I don't argue the fact that any PF raise should be all-in. It makes no sense to raise to 18BB when I only have 29BB, but if I call 9BB, an A flops, and vilian moves all-in, I can lay down KK here and still have 20BBs to continue with my tournament. If no A flops, I push on the flop and either take the originally 9BBs and add them to my stack or really punish a weak player who will call with JJ. As it ended up, I added 21BBs to my stack without ever putting my entire tournament in jeapordy.

If you are the type of person who pushes with KK everytime and just sit back, cross your fingers, and watch the cards come, then I respect that. It takes lots of guts to do that, and you don't have to make any tough decisions as the cards turn. However, I believe that most people on this forum would agree that being a consistent, successful MTT player is all about making tough decisions, taking advantage of situations, and making tough laydowns when necessary. Had vilian set me all-in on the river, I would have had an extremely tough decision because it would mean that my whole tournament is over if I'm wrong. I said it before, the fact that vilian DOESN'T set me all-in here should have been the biggest signal that he did not have an A.

If I'm wrong after making the call on the river, I still have 8BB. Could I have come back with 8BB at the 25/50 level to make the 3rd place finish that I made? I don't know, but one thing is for sure: You don't have ANY chance to come back once ALL your chips are gone.

At the 25/50 level you can NOT win the tournament on 1 hand, but you sure can lose it.

The all-in move works everytime, but 1!

Tosh

08-07-2004, 12:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]

First of all, I'm strong enough to admit when I made a mistake, and I believe that my mistake here was not recognizing that the 9BB raise was a weak player trying to protect a hand that I believe most would agree needs to be protected. However, wouldn't the same weak player make the same raise with other hands such as AJ or A10? While we're on the subject, can you really predict what a weak player is going to play with? As the tournament progresses into later rounds, the play becomes more predictable because the weaker players get knocked out.

[/ QUOTE ]

He might make it with AJ and AT too, so whats your point? You don't think he folds them do you?

As the weak players get knocked out the play becomes much tougher....