Were they right to be so pissed?

[hockey1]

I accidentally deleted the hand history from my e-mail, but the hand in question went something like this:

Party $109 SNG. 4 remain. Me (BB) and UTG have about 4500 chips each, button has about 600 and SB has 400. Blinds are 200/400.

UTG calls, SB completes (all in), I check with 95o (suits don't matter).

Flop is J92 rainbow. I bet 800. UTG folds. SB ends up winning the hand with Q9.

UTG, SB, and button all go BALLISTIC at me for betting the flop and driving out UTG, because that reduced the likelihood that SB would get knocked out. Were they right to be mad?

[durron597]

They are only right if you and UTG are the wrong kinds of players. You are a biggish stack, bubble treats big stacks goot /images/graemlins/smile.gif The tiny stacks have a long way to go before they can catch up to you. If UTG is too bubble tight, you can make a lot of chips putting him to the decision for most/all his chips if you do it right (though if he has you covered you can also bust yourself out this way if you try it at the wrong time). However, if he is looser and you feel could get in a situation where you could accidentally bust yourself to him in 4th then they are right. As far as that goes, it's a judgement call. Most times I like the play though /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[kyro]

SB went ballistic? Odd.

I don't know if there's some sort of "understood code" between poker players that if someone is all-in, you check it down HU. But if I'm big stack and I think I have the best hand, I'm not checking anything, I'm giving other people a worse chance of winning, in this case UTG.

[JDO]

Yup.

You can't win the pot with this bet alone. You will see the river. The only variable is how many players will see it with you.

And what do you gain by knocking UTG out of this hand? You have increased your chances of winning from 33% to 50%, but you did the same for the the guy all-in. Translate this to the tourny at large. What happens if all-in loses? You, and the other two, make the money. So in this situation you want as many hands in the pot to lower the chances that all-in will win. In this case, you turned a table advantage of 66% chance of winning, and 33% chance of losing, into a 50%-50% shot. And what do you gain? A better chance of winning a few chips...

Especially in a situation like this, where your hand has a very good chance of not being a winner. Check to the river. It's good poker. Remember, it's about money, not chips.

[hockey1]

[ QUOTE ]
And what do you gain by knocking UTG out of this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

The answer to this should be pretty obvious, I think.

[ QUOTE ]
You have increased your chances of winning from 33% to 50%

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just wrong.

[ QUOTE ]
What happens if all-in loses? You, and the other two, make the money. So in this situation you want as many hands in the pot to lower the chances that all-in will win.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given stack sizes I'm not at all worried about moneying here. My goal is to maximize tourney $$ EV, which warrants driving out other hands when there's a pretty good likelihood that my hand is better than SB's.

[ QUOTE ]
In this case, you turned a table advantage of 66% chance of winning, and 33% chance of losing, into a 50%-50% shot. And what do you gain?

[/ QUOTE ]

Last time I checked, poker wasn't a communistic game. And you're making the same error as the second quote, above.

[ QUOTE ]
And what do you gain? A better chance of winning a few chips...

[/ QUOTE ]

1200 chips isn't so few.

[ QUOTE ]
Especially in a situation like this, where your hand has a very good chance of not being a winner

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is there a very good chance on my hand not being a winner?

[uw_madtown]

Right on the bubble like that, I check it down. I'd rather sacrifice the "right" play here than risk bumping out a hand that may have drawn out to beat the all-in.

I wouldn't be pissed if I were them, but I don't see any reason NOT to check this down if I were you.

- UW

[Jman28]

Well, assuming you use your big stack to bully around the other stacks on the bubble, and are good at it... then yes...they should be pissed because you just increased your chance of winning and therefore decreased theirs.

But, should they be yelling at you?

Would you be upset if I called your all in and flipped over AA? (yes)*

Would you yell at me for being dumb? (no)*

*Hypothesized answers

You made a play that helps you win, like calling an all in with AA (in almost all situations).

We're out to make money, not to make friends or model airplanes or sandwiches... money

Good play.

[Gramps]

The only time I might check that down is if you're "back on the bubble" yourself (at risk of finishing out of the money) if the all-in player wins the hand - then it might be to your gain to keep the other player in who might draw out on the SB if SB is ahead, etc....

...however, with two very short stacks and a large stack yourself, you have about zero chance of finishing out of the money here, no delicate considerations to complicate matters here. Fire off a bet with your 2nd pair. My gosh, that's 1200 chips in there, don't puss out and let UTG draw out on you. You're going to be in a HU contest it looks like, those 1200 chips are quite vaulable in that contest.

Don't listen to the whiners - your only job is to play good poker. Betting that flop in this cirucmstance is CLEARLY good poker.

If UTG calls you, then check it down. If he's a biatch and "spite bets" you out of the pot on the Turn/River with a nothing hand, well...that doesn't happen very often...you'll still be able to get to the final two the vast majority of the time...and you only risked 400 chips at that 1200 pot...

[Nepa]

[ QUOTE ]
UTG, SB, and button all go BALLISTIC at me for betting the flop and driving out UTG

[/ QUOTE ]

I would raise the crybaby blind every time. Sound like scared money to me!

[Cleveland Guy]

THE SB was going to complete on anything - so you have no idea what his hand is.

You made a hand, so it's a good bet. I only think one could get upset if you bluffed at a pot to drive out a better hand.

[VarlosZ]

Like others have said, you increased your chance of winning the pot, and it's not very important to you that the short stack busts out right here, so you made the right play.

In response to the whining from the rest of the table, I'd give one of my two standard responses and leave it at that:

1. "I'm a very weak player; you should take advantage of me." (This one almost always gets the response, "yeah, I will.")

2. "I don't think you understand this game as well as you ought to." (This one usually makes people crazy.)


Regards,
Jer

[gergery]

Sure they were right to be mad – you made a good play that hurt their chances of doing better.

You are likely to have the best hand, and pushing UTG out gives you a better chance to win the hand and increase your stack by 1200 (or 25%) with best position for final 3.

If you lose the hand, you still have T4100 and 1st/3rd chip players want to avoid being the Bubble boy – a great steal place to be in. Once you lost this, I’d have raised the next hand with any two

--Greg

[patrick dicaprio]

if you had your hand and your opponent folded TT because he thought you had a J would you be posting this? button and Sb will likly be out soon anyway so if you can get some chips and take a good chip lead all the better.

Pat

[The4thFilm]

It wasn't right for him to get upset, but it was stupid for you to bet 800 into a pot of 0.

[durron597]

And give UTG a chance to draw out on him? No, he'd rather the SB have the chips than UTG.

[cferejohn]

[ QUOTE ]

1. "I'm a very weak player; you should take advantage of me." (This one almost always gets the response, "yeah, I will.")

2. "I don't think you understand this game as well as you ought to." (This one usually makes people crazy.)


[/ QUOTE ]

Personally, I like "LOL CRY MORE N00B!"

[joker1976]

If UTG is a good observant player, it's simply bad play. UTG will call with anything better than your hand and any strong draw. After the flop, the side pot has T1600 chips and UTG has the position to outplay you if he's on a draw. He'll only throw away complete junk, but with his position and the board J9x, there aren't many hands that justifies his call preflop. I don't know what UTG holds, but if I am at that position and didn't raise preflop(any low pair or Ax hand are definitely raising hand in this situation), about half the time I hold a monster and half the time holds two cards over 9, with that kind of board, you are for sure screwed, be ready to see a 2000 bet on turn or river 95% of the time. If you do not bet, UTG will not bet with a draw, he'll likely check down river unless he hit.

Since UTG folded, he's either a rock that folds QT or in this situation or a loose player that would call with K3 preflop UTG. Against these type of players, good bet.

btw. whoever is pissed at you be sure to bet into him next time.

[joker1976]

I didn't read the other replies when I posted mine. It surprised me how many people think that it's a good play without any info on UTG. I'd be interested to know what hand do you all call preflop UTG in that situation?

[ethan]

Exactly. As a big stack, you're often better off with 4 in than 3, assuming you can take advantage of the bubble to steal chips. If you happened to win the hand in question - fine. You have the chip lead with 3 left. UTG's sounds like the type to avoid a big confrontation until BB's gone, so you'll be able to steal post-bubble too. If you lose and SB stays in, he still doesn't have a respectable stack and you may still be able to push UTG around because he's afraid of bubbling.

The only person here who should be upset is BB, because you cost him some chance of making the money. So, you should ask yourself if you should feel bad costing another player money if it means you'll do better /images/graemlins/smile.gif