The Streak

[kerssens]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=neel/040803

Interesting take on Ripken, personally I think the '95 postseason had as much or more to do with the post-strike boom

[CCass]

I am the first person to vote no. There were things in the article that I agreed with, however. Ripkin will be remembered for "the streak", when he should be remembered for 400+HR, 1600+RBI, 3,000+H and 2 MVP's. Isn't Hammerin' Hank the only other player with those combined career numbers (HR, RBI, and H's)?

[bosoxfan]

I'm not saying he was bad but... in his 20 seasons he hit 265 or lower 10 times. Thems Pokey numbers.


I expect to be brutally flamed for this.

[offTopic]

[ QUOTE ]
I am the first person to vote no. There were things in the article that I agreed with, however. Ripkin will be remembered for "the streak", when he should be remembered for 400+HR, 1600+RBI, 3,000+H and 2 MVP's. Isn't Hammerin' Hank the only other player with those combined career numbers (HR, RBI, and H's)?

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless I'm misreading something, no. Mays, Winfield, and Eddie Murray all have achieved those numbers as far as I can tell.

[J.R.]

eddie murray went for 500+ hr, 1900+ rbi and 3200+ hits, willie mays went for 660 hr, 1900+ rbi and 3200+ hits, dave winfield went for 3100 hits, 465 hr and 1800 rbis hank aaron went for 3700 hits, 755 and 2297 rbis. Close to 3K, 400 and 1800 were stan musial went for 3600+ hits, 475 homers, 1900+ rbis and frank robinson went for 2943 hits, 586 hr and 1800+ rbis.

[ThaSaltCracka]

booo his streak.

[J.R.]

yaz also had 3400+ hits, 400+ hrs and 1800+ rbi

[bosoxfan]

Ripken has the lowest batting average (.276) of anyone with 3000 hits. He also has the most at bats per home run (26.8) of anyone with 400 home runs. And gets the distiction of being the man to hit into the most double plays in the history of the game.

[kerssens]

Aside from the streak I believe he did contribute to the game in the sense that he helped change the shortstop postion to an offensive position and now we have A-Rod, Tejada, etc.

[andyfox]

I think the streak and Mickey Mantle's death brought people back to baseball after the '94 strike. Ripken's victory lap, high-fiving the people in the stands, was one of the two greatest moments, along with Gehrig's "luckiest man on the face of the earth" speech, in baseball.

[nothumb]

Ripken had some bad seasons, but he also had some of the better offensive seasons of any shortstops. His career went on too long and that dragged his numbers down. He's still not legendary offensively, but he was the first shortstop of his type.

He also, as people have mentioned, revolutionized the position. His positioning and his quick lateral moments made up for the fact that he wasn't even that fast. (Which didn't help with all those DP's, unfortunately).

I think the guy stood for something, and he was likeable and consistent. He got old and mediocre, but most people do unless they die first.

NT

[offTopic]

[ QUOTE ]
Ripken had some bad seasons, but he also had some of the better offensive seasons of any shortstops. His career went on too long and that dragged his numbers down. He's still not legendary offensively, but he was the first shortstop of his type.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ernie Banks?

[CCass]

Thanks for correcting me. Still pretty lofty company to keep. And Ripken was a SS for a good portion of his career.

[kerssens]

Only a small sample but I'm a little surprised by the results

[jwvdcw]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying he was bad but... in his 20 seasons he hit 265 or lower 10 times. Thems Pokey numbers.


I expect to be brutally flamed for this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. Before today's era, .265 was an above average batting average for a shortstop, whose primary purpose was defense in that era.

[jwvdcw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am the first person to vote no. There were things in the article that I agreed with, however. Ripkin will be remembered for "the streak", when he should be remembered for 400+HR, 1600+RBI, 3,000+H and 2 MVP's. Isn't Hammerin' Hank the only other player with those combined career numbers (HR, RBI, and H's)?

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless I'm misreading something, no. Mays, Winfield, and Eddie Murray all have achieved those numbers as far as I can tell.

[/ QUOTE ]

they all have 2 MVPs??

[jwvdcw]

[ QUOTE ]
Ripken has the lowest batting average (.276) of anyone with 3000 hits. He also has the most at bats per home run (26.8) of anyone with 400 home runs. And gets the distiction of being the man to hit into the most double plays in the history of the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Compare his numbers to other shortstops before today's power/steroid era then get back to me.

[jwvdcw]

[ QUOTE ]
Aside from the streak I believe he did contribute to the game in the sense that he helped change the shortstop postion to an offensive position and now we have A-Rod, Tejada, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly...he changed the way the game was played. All of those power hitting/high average hitting SSs(Tejada, Jeter, A-Rod, Nomar) grew up during Ripken's prime. If it weren't for Cal, they would've probably switched positions in little league, but Cal made it alright for great hitters and big guys to be SSs.

[B-Man]

Not as overrated as Nolan Ryan, but still very overrated.

[offTopic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am the first person to vote no. There were things in the article that I agreed with, however. Ripkin will be remembered for "the streak", when he should be remembered for 400+HR, 1600+RBI, 3,000+H and 2 MVP's. Isn't Hammerin' Hank the only other player with those combined career numbers (HR, RBI, and H's)?

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless I'm misreading something, no. Mays, Winfield, and Eddie Murray all have achieved those numbers as far as I can tell.

[/ QUOTE ]

they all have 2 MVPs??

[/ QUOTE ]

The original poster, as shown in bold, cited the hits, homeruns and RBIs, not the MVP awards.

In fact, of those I listed, only Mays has 2 MVPs. The others don't have 2 between them (Aaron only had 1...1st all-time in HR, RBI, and total bases, 3rd all-time in hits and runs scored, go figure.)

[B-Man]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the streak and Mickey Mantle's death brought people back to baseball after the '94 strike. Ripken's victory lap, high-fiving the people in the stands, was one of the two greatest moments, along with Gehrig's "luckiest man on the face of the earth" speech, in baseball.

[/ QUOTE ]

Andy, I've got to disagree with you on this one (re: Ripken, not Gehrig). I can think of a lot of moments bigger than Ripken's victory lap. How about the historic post-season homeruns (Gibson, Fisk, etc.), McGwire breaking Maris' record, "The Giants Win the Pennant!" or Mariano Rivera blowing the 7th game of the World Series (probably a big stretch, but that last one was big for fans of all the other teams).

Impressive as it was, Ripken's streak was far too overhyped by the media. Brett Favre's consecutive games streak is 10 times more impressive than Ripken's, in my opinion (no exaggeration). Favre hasn't missed a game in almost 12 full seasons, playing a sport which is far more physically demanding than baseball. He's also been at or near the top of his profession for most of that time.

[kerssens]

[ QUOTE ]
Impressive as it was, Ripken's streak was far too overhyped by the media. Brett Favre's consecutive games streak is 10 times more impressive than Ripken's

[/ QUOTE ]

For sure......the players coming up in the mid nineties are what restored the game, just look at the series in '95 between Seattle and New York...awesome series that ended with Posada, Jeter and A-Rod playing bit roles, just a hint of what was coming

[B-Man]

Oh yeah, I forgot Ted Williams being mobbed by the players at the '99 All-Star game.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
Not as overrated as Nolan Ryan, but still very overrated.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now why you gotta drag my boy Nolan into this? We've had the "Nolan is overrated" discussion already.

[B-Man]

Sorry, when I think of overrated baseball players, I think of Nolan Ryan (most votes on the All-Century Team). I'm not saying he sucked, he just wasn't as great as he is perceived by most people.

[jwvdcw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think the streak and Mickey Mantle's death brought people back to baseball after the '94 strike. Ripken's victory lap, high-fiving the people in the stands, was one of the two greatest moments, along with Gehrig's "luckiest man on the face of the earth" speech, in baseball.

[/ QUOTE ]

Andy, I've got to disagree with you on this one (re: Ripken, not Gehrig). I can think of a lot of moments bigger than Ripken's victory lap. How about the historic post-season homeruns (Gibson, Fisk, etc.), McGwire breaking Maris' record, "The Giants Win the Pennant!" or Mariano Rivera blowing the 7th game of the World Series (probably a big stretch, but that last one was big for fans of all the other teams).

Impressive as it was, Ripken's streak was far too overhyped by the media. Brett Favre's consecutive games streak is 10 times more impressive than Ripken's, in my opinion (no exaggeration). Favre hasn't missed a game in almost 12 full seasons, playing a sport which is far more physically demanding than baseball. He's also been at or near the top of his profession for most of that time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some company(I think it was Mastercard, but I'm not sure) has a nationwide poll a few years ago asking the greatest moment in baseball history. They ran a show about it and counted them down. Something like 10 million people voted(obviously I don't remember the exact number)...Cal won in a landslide as the greatest moment ever. I can't disagree.

[jwvdcw]

[ QUOTE ]




Impressive as it was, Ripken's streak was far too overhyped by the media. Brett Favre's consecutive games streak is 10 times more impressive than Ripken's, in my opinion (no exaggeration). Favre hasn't missed a game in almost 12 full seasons, playing a sport which is far more physically demanding than baseball. He's also been at or near the top of his profession for most of that time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Favre isn't even close to the record for his sport. And even if you limit it to his position, Manning is still right on his tail and could easily surpass him some time.

[jwvdcw]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, when I think of overrated baseball players, I think of Nolan Ryan (most votes on the All-Century Team). I'm not saying he sucked, he just wasn't as great as he is perceived by most people.

[/ QUOTE ]

I put Ryan second only to Namath on the overrated list.

[youtalkfunny]

Toward the end of his career, I would wince every time I heard ESPN hype him as "The Great Cal Ripken".

Not a bad ballplayer, but to pencil him in with the all-time greats is absurd.

[Senor Choppy]

If the guy slips in the shower and breaks his ankle 10 years ago no one would give him a second thought in terms of truly great players.

He was a dedicated player who gave 110% to his team and provided a ton of at bats that most people wouldn't have, but in terms of ability and raw numbers, he's horribly overrated.

[andyfox]

Ripken's streak at shortstop, to me, is impressive. Hideki Matsui has played in a lot of consecutive games, including Japan and with the Yankees, but it would seem to be easier for an outfielder (who doesn't crash into walls), than for a middle infielder applying tags to base runners.

I think part of the reason for the hype was that Gehrig and Ripken were, apparently, admirable men, as well as fine players.

[andyfox]

In 1959, Aaron finished 3rd in the MVP voting, behind Ernie Banks and Eddie Mathews. Here are the relevant stats:

Banks:
45 HR
143 RBI
.304
.374 OBP
.596 SLG
351 total bases

Mathews
46 HR.
114 RBI
.306
.395 OBP
.593 SLG
352 Total bases

Aaron
39 HR
123 RBI
.355
.401 OBP
.636 SLG
400 Total bases

Yet Aaron got only 2 of 21 first place votes. Twice as many people thought Wally Moon should be the MVP.

[B-Man]

[ QUOTE ]
Some company(I think it was Mastercard, but I'm not sure) has a nationwide poll a few years ago asking the greatest moment in baseball history. They ran a show about it and counted them down. Something like 10 million people voted(obviously I don't remember the exact number)...Cal won in a landslide as the greatest moment ever. I can't disagree.

[/ QUOTE ]

That proves one thing--that the general public thinks very highly of the streak. Which is why I said it was overrated. It was impressive, but it has received far too much hype.

If you are basing how it should actually be evaluated based on the general perception, then what is the point of discussing whether it is overrated /images/graemlins/confused.gif?

[andyfox]

Is it overrated too? A guy who hit .406 finished second in the MVP largely because of it.

[B-Man]

[ QUOTE ]
Favre isn't even close to the record for his sport. And even if you limit it to his position, Manning is still right on his tail and could easily surpass him some time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right on his tail? He's nearly 100 starts behind Favre! Manning will have to start every game for the next six years just to get close to where Favre's streak currently sits. Also, Favre, who is famous for improvising and moving outside the pocket, has taken far more punishment than Manning has ever taken or is likely to take (Manning is a pure pocket passer who's had good protection most of his career (though he also should get credit for having a quick release, just like Favre gets credit for a quick release AND scrambling ability)).

I never said Favre had the record for his "sport," I said he was an ironman. I don't think it is relevant to compare such streaks between players who play different positions. But Favre has had the QB record for many years, and each year he extends his own record.

Finally, what is your point? That Favre is not an ironman?

[B-Man]

[ QUOTE ]
Is it overrated too?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

[jwvdcw]

[ QUOTE ]
If the guy slips in the shower and breaks his ankle 10 years ago no one would give him a second thought in terms of truly great players.



[/ QUOTE ]

Really? How many 2 time MVPs can you name? What about guys that set the all time record for fielding percentage at his position for one season? Rookie of the year, gold glover, world series winner, 3000 hits, 400 home runs...I could go on and on. You really think nobody would've given a second thought to a guy with all of those accomplishments? Hell, 3000 hits alone makes you a HOFer.

[jwvdcw]

[ QUOTE ]
In 1959, Aaron finished 3rd in the MVP voting, behind Ernie Banks and Eddie Mathews. Here are the relevant stats:

Banks:
45 HR
143 RBI
.304
.374 OBP
.596 SLG
351 total bases

Mathews
46 HR.
114 RBI
.306
.395 OBP
.593 SLG
352 Total bases

Aaron
39 HR
123 RBI
.355
.401 OBP
.636 SLG
400 Total bases

Yet Aaron got only 2 of 21 first place votes. Twice as many people thought Wally Moon should be the MVP.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the old days, media bias(and racism I'm sure as well) was terrible in the MVP. Even worse than your example, is one year when Ted Williams lost it to Joe Dimaggio. Williams hit .400 that year! Today, due to the backlash of fans, you can't have a totally biased vote. I mean, voters are still critisized for denying Bond's his mvp when he lost to Pendleton. Back in the day, writers didn't have to worry about that. Today its much better thankfully. However, obviously, the MVP is still a subjective award.

[jwvdcw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Favre isn't even close to the record for his sport. And even if you limit it to his position, Manning is still right on his tail and could easily surpass him some time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right on his tail? He's nearly 100 starts behind Favre! Manning will have to start every game for the next six years just to get close to where Favre's streak currently sits. Also, Favre, who is famous for improvising and moving outside the pocket, has taken far more punishment than Manning has ever taken or is likely to take (Manning is a pure pocket passer who's had good protection most of his career (though he also should get credit for having a quick release, just like Favre gets credit for a quick release AND scrambling ability)).

I never said Favre had the record for his "sport," I said he was an ironman. I don't think it is relevant to compare such streaks between players who play different positions. But Favre has had the QB record for many years, and each year he extends his own record.

Finally, what is your point? That Favre is not an ironman?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, my point was that this:"Brett Favre's consecutive games streak is 10 times more impressive than Ripken's" is absurd when you consider that he doesn't even have the record for his sport.

[B-Man]

[ QUOTE ]
No, my point was that this:"Brett Favre's consecutive games streak is 10 times more impressive than Ripken's" is absurd when you consider that he doesn't even have the record for his sport.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. Why does Favre need to have the record for his "sport" for his streak to be more impressive than Ripken's? The former has nothing to do with the latter.

[jwvdcw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, my point was that this:"Brett Favre's consecutive games streak is 10 times more impressive than Ripken's" is absurd when you consider that he doesn't even have the record for his sport.

[/ QUOTE ]



Not really. Why does Favre need to have the record for his "sport" for his streak to be more impressive than Ripken's? The former has nothing to do with the latter.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because they're obviously totally unrelated event(football vs baseball), so the only way to truly tell how amazing they are is to compare them to others of their same sport.

Heres an example? If you were to ask me if I thought that Michael Jordan or Barry Bonds were the better at his sport, I would not compare Jordan to Barry, rather I would compare Michael's dominance of baskeball to Barry's dominance of baseball.

So since Favre isn't even the top of his sport, I find Cal's more impressive. Someone else has already done above and beyond what Favre has done, so how hard can it be? Moreover, another player who plays the exact same position is fairly close to Favre(hes more than 50% of the way there). No current baseball player is at even 20%% of Cal's streak.

[kerssens]

so Jordan or Bonds??

[jwvdcw]

[ QUOTE ]
so Jordan or Bonds??

[/ QUOTE ]

In basketball you can dominate the game more since you're on the court nearly all the tim and can touch the ball 100s of times each game. So Jordan dominated the game more.

However, I think Bonds is/was better at his sport.

[B-Man]

[ QUOTE ]
Because they're obviously totally unrelated event(football vs baseball), so the only way to truly tell how amazing they are is to compare them to others of their same sport.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you can't compare a football players to a baseball player, but it is ok to compare a QB to a kicker, or to an offensive lineman? That makes a lot of sense.

[ QUOTE ]
Heres an example? If you were to ask me if I thought that Michael Jordan or Barry Bonds were the better at his sport, I would not compare Jordan to Barry, rather I would compare Michael's dominance of baskeball to Barry's dominance of baseball.

So since Favre isn't even the top of his sport, I find Cal's more impressive. Someone else has already done above and beyond what Favre has done, so how hard can it be? Moreover, another player who plays the exact same position is fairly close to Favre(hes more than 50% of the way there). No current baseball player is at even 20% of Cal's streak.

[/ QUOTE ]

No QB has ever come close to what Favre has done. Manning is just barely halfway to catching Favre--I'm not sure why you call that "fairly close." Favre's streak is at the top of his position, by far (and if you can't compare baseball to football, then you certainly can't compare other positions to QB).

[ QUOTE ]
Someone else has already done above and beyond what Favre has done, so how hard can it be?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't think what Favre has done is "hard," then you know nothing about football and should stick to baseball.

[kerssens]

Farve is still at or at least very close to the top of his game and Ripken tailed off towards the end of his streak

[jwvdcw]

[ QUOTE ]
Farve is still at or at least very close to the top of his game and Ripken tailed off towards the end of his streak

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. Favre in his prime was an MVP candidate year in and year out. Nowadays, I can name many QBs I would rather have on my team than him(Pennington, Vick, McNair, Brady, Manning, etc.).

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Farve is still at or at least very close to the top of his game and Ripken tailed off towards the end of his streak

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. Favre in his prime was an MVP candidate year in and year out. Nowadays, I can name many QBs I would rather have on my team than him(Pennington, Vick, McNair, Brady, Manning, etc.).

[/ QUOTE ]
I concur. Favre was an incredible QB, but the way he played, if he was the slightest bit off, it was disastrous. His style of play was always walking the edge. He has now gotten to a point where his abilities have degraded and he's slightly off quite often.

[kerssens]

yeah, I was thinking after I posted that Favre probably has lost a little, to me the two streaks are getting to be very similar in that the first thing that many "experts" on tv talk about is the "ironman" Brett Favre whenever they do a Packers story, it seems to be taking on a life of its own, just like Cal's streak

someone earlier said that Dimaggio's streak is overrated, I disagree with that

[jwvdcw]

[ QUOTE ]


So you can't compare a football players to a baseball player, but it is ok to compare a QB to a kicker, or to an offensive lineman? That makes a lot of sense.


No QB has ever come close to what Favre has done. Manning is just barely halfway to catching Favre--I'm not sure why you call that "fairly close." Favre's streak is at the top of his position, by far (and if you can't compare baseball to football, then you certainly can't compare other positions to QB).


If you don't think what Favre has done is "hard," then you know nothing about football and should stick to baseball.

[/ QUOTE ]

1.Do you even realizing that I'm supporting your side here? Cal played in 2500+ games straight. Favre hasn't even played in 200! Clearly, the two aren't comparable based on numbers alone. If they were, Cal would be more than 12 times as good! Since you can't compare them to other sports, I compare them to how their streaks match up against others that play their same sport.

2.No, you can't compare a QB to a kicker obviously. However, its not like QBs take more hits than RBs. The average RB gets hit so much that he can't play past age 30(or at least his productions declines a lot), while QBs can play until they're 40! If the QB got hit more than any other football position, then your argument would have more merit. However, QB gets hit much less than many positions.

3.With Manning, I was merely pointing out that a current QB is over 1/2 the way to his streak, and imo has a decent shot at challenging his streak. Compare that to Ripken's streak where the closest guy is still over 2000 games away!

4.I admit that what Favre has done is hard. I just don't think it rivals Ripken's streak.

[kerssens]

That interception against Philly last year was one of the worst plays I've ever seen

[offTopic]

[ QUOTE ]
In 1959, Aaron finished 3rd in the MVP voting, behind Ernie Banks and Eddie Mathews. Here are the relevant stats:

[/ QUOTE ]

Clearly, they were thinking, "That's pretty good, but let's see him do it again."

[jwvdcw]

[ QUOTE ]


someone earlier said that Dimaggio's streak is overrated, I disagree with that

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it depends on how you're looking at it. Is it easy to do? Not at all. Does luck matter a lot though? Yes. Does it actually help to be an impatient hitter(which will ultimately hurt the team)? Yes.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

[ QUOTE ]
That interception against Philly last year was one of the worst plays I've ever seen

[/ QUOTE ]
Growing up in WI and being a fan of a rival NFC North team, I've seen plenty of Favre. I called that play "Vintage Favre" because it's the very kind of thing that he is very prone to do. He tries to pull that crap all the time and I love it. These are the kinds of disastrous things that happen when he's just a bit off his game. There's no room for him to be anything but his absolute best. If he's not, all hell breaks loose.

[Senor Choppy]

Fielding percentage is horribly overrated. I'd take a guy that made twice as many errors but could manage a batting average over .300 any day. Rookie of the year and gold gloves are good achievements, but they aren't what make someone great. 3000 hits is also nice...unless it took you well over 20 years and a billion at bats to do it. 400 home runs, also nice, but look at Fred McGriff, longevity plus a lot of very good but not great years does not make a truly great player. And yeah, 3000 hits gets you into the hall of fame, but no one would argue that Pete Rose is one of the great all time hitters and he's got 1k more hits than almost everyone.

[andyfox]

Well, he had already won an MVP award in 1957. Banks then won it in 1958; Banks, as a power-hitting shortstop, must really have impressed the voters. Then Banks knocks in 143 runs in 1959; the MVP voters are always impressed with RBIs (see Don Baylor; see Don Mattingly). Eddie Mathews was a helluva player and, as a teammate of Aaron's, they would have hurt each other's chances.

I can understand the L.A. based reporters voting for Wally Moon for MVP, but two others voted for him over these three guys?

Aaron should have been the MVP; but the voting for Banks and Mathews was at least understandable.

[andyfox]

I think I agree. It's kind of a freak statistic.

[jwvdcw]

[ QUOTE ]
Fielding percentage is horribly overrated. I'd take a guy that made twice as many errors but could manage a batting average over .300 any day. Rookie of the year and gold gloves are good achievements, but they aren't what make someone great. 3000 hits is also nice...unless it took you well over 20 years and a billion at bats to do it. 400 home runs, also nice, but look at Fred McGriff, longevity plus a lot of very good but not great years does not make a truly great player. And yeah, 3000 hits gets you into the hall of fame, but no one would argue that Pete Rose is one of the great all time hitters and he's got 1k more hits than almost everyone.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jeez, what numbers do impress you? You mention batting average...well take a lot at Ripken's numbers compared to most others at his position in the late 80s/early 90s- hes proably about 50 points higher than the average! How is defense overrated, especially from a SS???!!!