8-16: I pulled a Tommy!!

Tightish 8-16 at the Bellagio. I open raise 2 off the button with As9c. The cutoff, the only tight/solid player in the game cold calls, and the button, an aggressive player who has been respecting my raises now 3-bets. The blinds fold.


I fold for one more bet.

I think it's really important to be able to let go of hands quickly, regardless of the fact that you raised. That's my top focus right now. You thought you had the best hand pre-flop, subsequent action implied that you did not, and you acted on that information. Great hand.

should have folded the A9 offsuit, but you failed to say how many people were in the game, but good fold preflop, you tried to test out the waters....and you get knocked up on both ends...


A9 offsuit, is a very poor starting hand....should just muck it.....especially if you think it's a tight game, think of it this way, if someone has A-10-J-Q-K, you are outkicked.....and would you really feel confident betting and if an A fell......i wouldn't......


but very very good fold, nice discipline...

Yeah - I've noticed one of the regulars in my 20-40 is raising/folding and betting/folding on the same betting round. It makes me think, "Damn - I need to watch that guy."


Regards, Lee

I think that it is automatic to open raise preflop in this spot. Especially in a tight game where there is alot of blind stealing equity. As it turned out, there were not one but two better hands out there, but that is going to be the exception, not the norm.

Even Tommy just does it heads up against Ray Zee,

it has to be a mistake here with 2 other players no?


And isn't there a danger of preflop moves being made on you in the future?


I see a fairly good player do this in my local game, but it just caused me to lower my evaluation of him slightly and perhaps resteal a little more often.


D.

Local player...his initials are ML?

I think folding A9 to the dude's 3 bet is a mistake.


The solid player in the cut-off should not have an Ace. If he has a big Ace hand, he would three bet it himself. I put him on QJs or 77 or something. Arguably, he should 3 bet with those hands as well but given that he coldcalled, he is way more likley to have those hands than an Ace hand bigger than A9.


The button 3 bets. He could have a bigger Ace - then again, he might not. Obvioulsy, the primary alternate suspect is a pocket pair. With the money already in the pot, I would call with A9 and if I hit an Ace on the flop, there would have to be some pretty strong betting from *both* of my opponents to make me fold it even then.


Emulating Tommy's play {boy, I would love to see his complete playbook} is no doubt a very good thing but I disagreed with his decision to fold 22 against Zee and I disagree with him here if he endorses your fold.

yes. That him.


Have you seen it?


D.

Yup, I have seen him do that. I don't get it. One time, just the other day, I three bet him with 88 on the button after he had raised from middle/late position. He folded.


Thank you, sir!

Won't matter if you fold or raise. I bet that over a year, you couldn't hardly tell the difference in your results if you fold or raise.


But I do think that calling is the third best option.


Regards, Lee

"I disagreed with his decision to fold 22 against Zee and I disagree with him here if he endorses your fold."


Well, the 22 fold did make for a nifty chat with Ray. So there's value in that.


Here's a similar situation to Clarkmeister's. I raise, a player behind me three-bets, and I'm all set to fold if everyone folds. Then one of the blinds calls two cold, and now I have a hard time folding any piece of cheese that I started goofy with. A-x especially because if I don't hit I'm not chasing even for one bet, and if an ace flops, I'll posture properly on the flop and it's relatively easy to get a read in these three-bet, three-way pots with an ace on board.


Clarkmeister's situation is different though, with a cold-call behind, and the three-bet coming from the blind. If it's a player in the blind who will raise AK and AQ just as readily as big pairs, then I will occasionally muck preflop, but not often, since I might really like it if an ace comes and the blind looks bothered, especially if the cold-caller is the type who will reraise with big aces, but it also depends on just how these guys will play the various paths after the flop. Here's where being dominated ain't so bad against certain players because after we snag a nine on the flop, now the AK has three outs to win, and two outs to hit an ace and blow three bets, turn and river combined, and the rest of the deck to payoff our pair with his ace-high. Plus it's so much better to be behind the three-bettor, which Clark was, because you can count on an opportunity to put two-bet pressure on the cold-caller on the flop, thereby getting reads on all remaining players, and a good chance to make some dead money.


Whew.


I think Clarkmeister's play is excellent in that he's flexible enough to let it happen. I agree with Lee on two things. I do think there is a What-just-happened? value with raising/betting and folding on the same round. And I think this situation could well be a break-even choice. If that's so, then all the better a time to do a spazzo bullet fold.


Tommy

It was the button who 3-bet, so I was in the worst position with the worst hand. I put the coldcaller on something like AJs or AQ. I think that he would have 3-bet me with a PP that he wanted to play badly enough to call a raise. This leaves me essentially drawing dead to a 99 flop. I didn't think it was close at all.


FWIW, the button had AA and won. Never saw the other players cards.


As far as players taking shots - this is such a rare and specific instance that I would be astounded if I did it more than a few times per year. Hell, the off balance factor alone is worth that. And is it really any worse than raising and folding to a single bet on the flop headsup? I think not.


I thought this was a great time to use a Tommyism and not try to waste alot of time thinking at the table on this one. I had the 3rd best hand, the worst position, and no clue how to proceed even if I did flop something. Why think about it....just fold and move on to the next hand.

If the dude to your left is coldcalling - rather than 3 betting - with AQ/AJs when you openraise from late position, you should definitely be raiaing preflop with A9 (and probably much less)...I say that because some qusetioned your preflop raise (I did too in my own mind but I can now see why you would raise).


As for postflop, the fact that the button had AA doesn't really affect my analysis. If someone else has an Ace, the flop will usually miss you both. You could fold to his flop bet and be out 1 small bet. On the other hand, if you catch an Ace on the flop, that means that there are only 2 left making it unlikely that your opponents have an Ace. You would gain postflop and of course snatch what's in the pot already which is not an insignificant amount.


I think that calling is clearly the right play. If Sklansky thinks that calling with 73s from the bb against an UTG raise and late position coldcaller is a no-brainer, I gotta think that he might shudder at the thought of this fold.


Anyway, we are no doubt talking past each other here but I simply don't see the wisdom of folding in this spot with 8.5 small bets in the pot already. Perhaps, some day, you and Tommy will have to explain it to me in person.


Cheers.


skp

I do know this.....I was playing with your fellow Vancouverite Terrence Chan the other night at Binions. He limped in the SB, I raised 6 players in my BB preflop, and he folded his SB when it closed the action.


He looked at me when I gave him a questioning glance, then shrugged and said "respect".


I happened to have AA that time too, hahaha.

i limp utg with 55 hoping to set off a limping frenzy... no dice, utg+3 raises and button 3 bets...blinds fold, and it's two cold to me with another raise left. i fold...comments?


ps. don't let this influence you but i liked your fold fine and have no problem with it. there are surely better spots to splash some chips around for image plays or semibluffing moves, etc.

"I simply don't see the wisdom of folding in this spot with 8.5 small bets in the pot already. Perhaps, some day, you and Tommy will have to explain it to me in person."


I can't explain it because I would almost never do it. Though I do think a case could be made, as I sorta did in my prior post.


The play I make about once a month that I've only seen others do a few times in my life is raising preflop, getting raised from behind, and then folding for one bet when the pot will definitely be headsup. I think that with the right player reraising (a solid-starters, strong player) and with the right hands (such as J-9 offsuit), this is a reasonable fold. You can say that the initial raise is ill-advised, but I see that as irrelevant.


(I don't get caught that far out of line very often because it typically only happens when I'm in the cutoff and the button player is hyper-tight and he happens to pick up a monster, hence the once-per-month frequency.)


Tommy

Thanks for the clarification, Tommy. I definitely do see the rationale for the play you describe. I understand Clark's reasoning as well but I would call in his situation.

I did something like this a few nights ago. Tight solid and somewhat tricky player open limps UTG, I raise from the cutoff with AQo, loose player in the BB calls, UTG reraises, I fold.


This was kind of a tight game (recently the 10-20 games have stunk around here), so I felt pretty certain UTG was trying to get action by limping with AA or KK. If that is the case, it's about 2:1 whether he holds aces or kings (given I hold 1 ace). I am being laid 8.5:1 to flop an ace, which is a 1:5 shot if he has KK, and a 1:15 shot I don't want to make if he has AA. So, my weighted odds are about 1:8 to flop an A and be against KK. In retrospect, I think I should've played given the tiny overlay (although at the time I wasn't sure I had an overlay at all), my position, and the presence of a loose player to pay me off when I flop an ace, all of which should offset the slight postflop loss I am going to incur (on average) from UTG.


Anyway, the flop comes Q high rags, UTG bets and is called. The turn is an A, UTG bets and is called. River is a blank, checked through, and UTG shows (surprise) KK.