KK Question

[SpiderMnkE]

Ok... I have seen this happen quite a few times lately... sometimes twice a day... playing a couple tables at a time for hours on end.

I will see two guys get into a raising war pf... which results in an all-in pf by both players. I say to myself... AA vs KK... and sure enough... every time is has been.

Is there any point where you should realize your KK is against AA... or should you always go to the felt with KK.

It isn't just happening with little stacks either... I've seen some relatively deep stacks get crushed this way.

[PokerFink]

Hellmuth says that he has laid down KK preflop four times in his life, and he has always laid it down against AA.

For the rest of us, I think having KK vs AA is just a death warrant. Chalk it up to horrid luck and buy-in again.

[EverettKings]

Online, without some EXTREME read on your opponent, you'd have to pry KK out of my cold, dead hands preflop. The players are fishy enough that they could get into these wars with anything, often QQ, AK, JJ, etc. You have to be damn sure its AA to let it go, and online I doubt I will ever be THAT sure.

[Raiser]

I think you gotta be willing to get all your chips in pre-flop with KK in the online games. Of course my experience is with Party Poker which are some pretty bad games. I am constantly seeing JJ, QQ, AK, even any Ace get pushed all in before the flop.

In the games I play it is unlikely that you are up against AA and even when you are you have a 20% shot at cracking the Aces.

[SayGN]

Man I know what you mean....it's fairly rediculous how often i see AA vrs KK (but sshhhhh don't call shinanigans or the 2+2 people will rip you to shreds)...I have been on the losing end twice and the winning end once in the last month. I see it just about every day and I only play for about 2hrs/day..whenever someone has aces and another has kings at the same time, your poker provider wins. no better way to maximize the rake.

[PokerFink]

[ QUOTE ]
whenever someone has aces and another has kings at the same time, your poker provider wins. no better way to maximize the rake.

[/ QUOTE ]

And that, my friends, is why I no longer play online poker for money.

[JrJordan]

If you have the initial 50xBB buy in, then there are very few times that you should fold your KK preflop in my experience. In a heads up situation, I have NEVER folded and have no doubt it is +EV. The only time I have folded is when an EP raised 4xBB from EP, I reraised to 12xBB in MP, CO reraised to 25xBB, and EP followed back with a push. I didn't have a read on EP at the time, but CO was a legitimate player that most likely had AA. Had EP not pushed on top, I'd still most likely call, but it would be very debateable.

Regarding deeper stacks, there is some point where you should be able to lose your KK. I'd still be willing to push with a 75xBB stack, but not much more. Around 100xBB, you really have to look at the player you're against. By the 4th reraise, he's either an idiot and overplaying his QQ, or most likely has AA. The problem is you may get pot committed before you realize this. 100xBB is probabaly around that point. Anything more than that, and you should be able to get out with KK before losing everything.

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
Hellmuth says that he has laid down KK preflop four times in his life, and he has always laid it down against AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hellmuth talks crap. He laid down QQ twice in the wsop to lower pairs, so I find it hard to believe a guy that takes pride in big laydowns has never mistakenly laid down KK preflop. It's his ego talking.

Generally, KK is a hand you live or die by if it all goes in preflop. At lower levels because you are against bad players. At higher levels for psychological reasons. On very deep money, you do back off at some point and see the flop rather than get allin.

Truly good players do not make a habit of folding KK preflop.

[SpiderMnkE]

Hellmuth made those folds because he didn't want to coinflip. He knew he was good enough to succeed without them. He was also able to build his stack significantly despite those folds.

Hellmuth plays goot.

I believe he probably did make those folds correctly to aces.

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
Hellmuth made those folds because he didn't want to coinflip.

[/ QUOTE ]

But he wasn't in a coinflip, so he read it very wrong. If he can read it wrong, then he can read being against aces wrong and mistakenly fold kings.

I mean, one of the pairs was 77 I think. If he can misread someone that bad, then someone could easily have JJ or AK when he reads them for aces. Big laydowns are his biggest fault, and if he does fold KK preflop as he claims, there is no question he has done so against a worse hand. People are always re-raising him preflop to get him to laydown. That's why you should not make a habit of making big laydowns.

He also claimed folding the QQ was right even against the lower pair he would have been against. Do you also believe him when he says this, or is there the slightest possibility his ego does a lot of his talking?

[SpiderMnkE]

I don't know the entire situation. But I'm sure he had a reason for it. The fact that the guy had 77 is irrelevent. Maybe he made a bad read there but I believe he knows what he is doing.

He knows the risk/reward and has a decent ability to access his current competition in the tournament.

He obviously knew that there would be much better post flop situations where he knows with much more certainty that he is ahead.

It was probably early in the tournament and the blinds weren't big enough for him to be making any kind of gamble. I bet he had tons of time and very bad opponents. So for him... the laydown probably was correct.

As for folding KK... it might not have been the same type of situation at all. The stacks could have been very deep and he could be on a 4th raise by a super super tight player. I imagine that most of his KK laydowns were to AA.

[JohnG]

Sometimes, the image is better than the reality. I hope yours about hellmuth can survive as you progress.

[PokerFink]

Just for clarification, he writes about laying down KK four times in his life in his book, "Play poker like the pros."

[SpiderMnkE]

"Sometimes, the image is better than the reality. I hope yours about hellmuth can survive as you progress."

I don't understand... are you saying that I'm being duped by tv into believing a bad player is good. All I have to do is look at his track record to know he is good.

[Wayfare]

On party $25/$50 you should back a normal buy in (50x bb) with your entire stack and KK virtually every time. I would say when you have more like 100 times the big blind and your raise gets reraised, you can either just flatcall the raise and see if he still comes out firing, or play it for a set (if stacks are super deep). As long as the last raise isn't more than 10% of your stack, you shouldn't have a problem playing even if it is for just a set.

[SpiderMnkE]

That makes sense... I like it

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
"Sometimes, the image is better than the reality. I hope yours about hellmuth can survive as you progress."

I don't understand... are you saying that I'm being duped by tv into believing a bad player is good. All I have to do is look at his track record to know he is good.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm saying the image you get through the media is often far removed from reality. Hellmuth is good, but he isn't great. The tournament track record proves nothing either way. All it proves is he is not a bad player. It doesn't prove he's great or better than any other good player. This doesn't just go for hellmuth, but any tourney 'superstar'. Most of them are just broke degenerate gamblers not good enough to make a living playing cash games.

If hellmuth had to rely on what he won and lost playing poker for a living, he'd be broke.

It may look like I have something against hellmuth, but I don't. I quite like him and enjoy watching him on tv. That doesn't mean I have to buy the bullshit.

[excession]

lol and this would affect your win rate by just about zero...unless they give your opponents AA more often than you..

perhaps (and it's just a wild guess here) you gave up online poker adn choose to believe it's rigged because you lost money ? /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[excession]

hang on this is a NL forum - why are you going to get 4x pre-flop raises?

stop messing about - at low limits you re-raise all in with KK coz you will get a caller up to 40% of the time (according to my last 50 all-ins pre-flop on PT, I got called 20 times and only once with AA - I spiked a K on the river as well)

My +EV with KK just re-raising all-in on the Party $25 NL and the PS $50 NL tables (both 25c/50c blinds) is +$18.6/hand - you can play it weak tight if you like, but I'm a big fan of the all in

[HajiShirazu]

The really horrible thing was that he made some of these folds face up, if I remember correctly. What could be worse?

[SpiderMnkE]

I never said I make these folds. Also... I have recently learned that on the QQ v 77 hand Phil said he put the guy on no better than Jacks. It was also at least day 2 of the main event.

If that's the case... that is retarded.

Folding face up... I sure hope that wasn't bragging.

But... I did see him at a final table on TV the other night. Getting sucked out on by our boy Gavin Griffin. So... he must not suck to be at the final table of a wsop event. Doesn't he also tie the record for most bracelets or some chit.

Phil plays goot. Sometimes he's a pussy.. sometimes he's a baby. But he got game

[Xargque]

What do people think of bluffing at the pot if a Queen (or possibly Jack or Ten) flops?