Any way to avoid this trap?

I limped late after 2 limpers with A8s. No one else called and the bb checked.


The flop came AJ6r. Checked to me I bet. The bb and 1 other called.


The turn was an off Q. It was again checked to me. I checked behind planning to pay off a bet on the river or bet myself. I realized I might be giving a dangerous free card, but I thought I may already be behind to a better ace and the queen could've made a two-pair or straight.


The river was a 3. It was checked to me again and this time I bet. Now the bb raised and I paid him off. He had KT for broadway.


Talk about a frustrating hand. In hindsight, maybe I should've bet the turn and folded to a check/raise? Maybe I should've checked down my ace on the river as well?


At first, I thought the bb played the hand brilliantly. But then I can't help thinking that just because he played it in such as a way as to cost ME the most money personally, he might not have played it well at all. He took the worst of it drawing to gutshot only to chance not making another dime after he was lucky enough to hit. Fortunately for him, he had a real sucker like me in the hand. What does everyone think?

On the turn, you can bet and fold to a raise if there is no 2 flush, but this may cost you outs against QJ or A6. So checking is ok. However, with this board, I can't see an ace slowplaying twice, and since it's only 4 handed, I would think a lone ace is unlikely, so I would put them both on jacks or gutshots, AJ or a set. I don't liek slowplaying here, but some might.


This means that they will both go to the river since the Q gave them 2 pair, a straight, or a pair and a gutshot, so checking the turn is unlikely to cost the pot.


I don't really see a need to call the river raise, unless this player is very tough or bluff raises a lot. I can see a good case for betting - it looks like you have a jack, or nothing.


Did he play well? well, his flop call is at risk for a check-raise, and the card he need is slightly dead, so he played te flop poorly.


If his reads are like mine, he probably does best by betting the turn. Pairs and gutshots and QJ will call 1 bet, but maybe not 2. You may not bet or may raise his bet. If he check-raises you on the turn, I suspect you call and fold if you don't improve, or everyone folds anyway, so he makes almost nothing that way.


On the river, I think he has a close decision between betting and checking, depending on the other players (if it's weekend 20-40, bet). Given that it was you who bet, I think he should go for overcalls as he has no reason to think you will call a raise, unless you always do.


So I don't like how he played it at all. I think you played well, except calling the raise on the river - if you felt you had to call a river raise, I think checking is better.


Better luck.


Dan Z.

I hate the way the BB played the hand. The call on the flop is marginal with players behind him who might be waiting to check raise, but I mostly hate his play on the turn. A turn check raise nearly guarantees he will blast out the other player, and being a late position bettor, you could easily not even have enough to call his raise. Betting right on the turn has the potential to win many more bets, especially if he catches you with something better than a lone pair and traps the other player in the middle. Check raising the river might be OK, but I think he botched the turn big time.


In your shoes, I would bet the turn and hope for a free showdown. Being check raised is a pretty rough call (mostly because your late position bets could be perceived as a much weaker hand than you actually have), but with no action on the flop I'm going to proceed on the basis nothing has changed yet. On the river, your bet looks like it could be a steal after you checked the turn, so I think you have to call the raise unless this guy is pretty straightforward.

Thanks Dan-


I could give quite a few reasons why I called the check/raise on the river. But it would be hard for even me to distinguish between the sound reasons and hopeless justifications.


I could say I called to prevent getting pushed around by other players later in the game, or I don't want to become known as a "folder", etc.


I could say I called for information. "You check/called the flop, checked the turn, and now all of a sudden you're check/raising me when a friggin' 3 hits? Here's $30 bucks. I wanna see what the hell you'll play that way.


Maybe the biggest reason I called was because I played MY hand in such a way that he couldn't be sure what I had. Even though he'll have an actual hand more times than he'd be check/raise bluffing with, it just didn't make sense. I was trapped in the truest sense of the word. The 3 figured to be the most harmless card in the deck. The lights flashed, the bells sounded, and I paid him off like a slot machine.

Yeah, getting check/raised on the turn would've been a tough call. Mainly because I might have outs to QJ or quite a few hands a bb could have. Still, betting the turn seems right. It would simplify things much more. As it was, I lost 2 big bets which still seems about right.


I agree he makes more money by simply betting the turn. He potentially risked leaving a lot of money on the table. Thanks Coilean.

One way to save a small bet would be to raise before the flop. Then when they check to you and you bet the turn, if you get check-raised, you've shown sufficient strength to fold.


As it went down, I think it's best to bet the turn because you have an ace and there's an ace on board and no one has made a move. It's a case of when in doubt, aim at the hole.


Once you check the turn, it's not unreasonable to check the river as well. It's an unraised, small pot, a good time for an odd sort of variance play, which is ...


You check the river and one of two things will happen. Someone will turn over a hand that beats yours, and it will be obvious that you avoided a river-trap, no matter what you have, since you were in perfect position to bluff, and you didn't.


Or ...


You have the winner, in which case they will see your pair of aces, and recall that you checked the turn AND river, which will send confusing signals, and hopefully give your near-future bluffs more weight.


Tommy

I really did come close to checking the river. If I had, it might've been a rare occurrence. I almost NEVER show a hand I don't have to. But I don't know that I'd have been able to refrain from flipping over an ace and rubbing in the missed bets.

I think that if you check the turn, you have to check the river as well.


The *point* of checking the turn with a weak ace and a board like that, aside from simply saving bets when your opponent has you beat, is to induce a bluff on the river, which you can comfortably snap off with your top pair.


You've shown weakness on the turn, and your opponent checks to you on the river. What hands that don't beat you is he likely to call you with? I don't think you gain enough by betting to justify the risk of getting called by a stronger hand.


Check the river, and when your opponent shows you the straight, say "Nice hand, sir, very well played."


(Your opponent is a putz -- the check-raise attempt on the turn is debatable, but when it failed, a bet is pretty much mandatory, because a good opponent will often check on the river as well.)