my 33 hand and a bonus shorthanded hand

since dynasty and angry young man posted 33 hands i thought id post one i played last night. i think we need more discussion of solid group 7 hands like this one. and i play a lot of group 7 hands so here goes.


i have 33 on the button, 7 handed 30-60. loose passive lady limps early, mp poster checks, loose asian guy raises in the cutoff (he's likely to have anything from 97s to AA and maybe some surprise offsuit crap thrown in there too). i cold call with my 33, sb calls, but bb folds much to my surprise as he's a big fish. others call.


the flop is QQ2 rainbow. checked to me and i bet, only the cutoff calls.


the turn is a J. we both check.


the river is a 9. we both check.


comments?


bonus hand: 5 handed: im in cutoff with J3s. sb is a fishy turd who i feel very blessed to be playing against and bb is a loose dude who thinks he's good. i open limp, sb calls, bb raises we call. 3 handed.


the flop is 345 with one of my suit. bb bets, i raise, sb folds, bb calls.


the turn is a 5 giving me a four flush. i bet and am called.


the river is an offsuit K. he bets, i call.


comments?

Uh, I think you're too loose preflop. I think that the cold call in the first hand is slightly wrong and that the open limp in the second hand is grossly wrong.

i think if you're going to play the 33 you should reraise (especially since you read the cutoff for being a loose raiser) and try to knock out the blinds and limpers to get heads up with him. if you felt you wouldn't be able to get the limpers to fold for 2 more bets i think a fold would be better.


open limping with J3s (suited not spades, still kicking myself /images/smile.gif ) might not be a good idea either, if you really want to play it i'd say open-raise and try to buy the button and perhaps steal the blinds.


then again. what do i know.


Preston

the 33 was good, wasnt it?

the J3 was beat by a bare king.

just my two cents...


3 2 1

Not enough implied odds to play 33 here. The passive lady and the random hand of the poster clinch folding the hand for me.


Curious why you checked the turn. I'd likely fire again. The only exception would be if he's a habitual bluffer. Then I might check and pay off any card that fell on the river. Hopefully, this was your intention also.

You seem to be one who likes pushing the envelope. I suppose that's fine, but you better be good. Are you?

I play the 33 the way you play it, except against weak-tight players I fire on the turn to not let them see AK,AT and other hands to the river for free. If the cutoff bets on the flop I raise and then check the rest of the way.


On the bonus hand I have no idea as I know shorthanded play is a big weakness of mine and is more dependent on actual player reads and history more than what can be conveyed in a 2+2 post.


DN


i read in another post of yours....2BB+ for the past year? insane....gotta love loosey goosey LA games....

this is a response to daniel's post as well.


preflop with the J3s 5 handed. it's awfully marginal and a fold couldnt be far from wrong and may in fact be dead on. but why not open raise with it 5 handed from the cutoff?


well this raise was automatic for me until very recently (given 5 handed or less, and if i dont fold). but i was reading and rereading some things and thinking a bit about my openraising standards and decided that i was raising too often with hands with no intrinsic showdown value against blinds whom i knew probably wouldnt fold. in other words, ive been trapping myself in my attempts to steal blinds. even more so, by constantly openraising i was encouraging the blinds to play along even more often then they normally would.


so ive decided to start openlimping more often with marginally playable hands against weak blinds who play poorly and passively after the flop. J3s seemed to fit the bill five handed and the sb in this game definintely fit the bill of very passive and very bad at hold em and extremely likely to call my raise preflop.


does my logic seem sound or is their a flaw somewhere in there?

yeah the 33 was good. my opponent showed AKs. he was very disgusted.


my J3s was good as well. my opponent said "A high" and i showed my pair of 3s and he just shook his head and laughed self-righteously to himself.


(i was laughing hard too, on the inside of course).

"You seem to be one who likes pushing the envelope. I suppose that's fine, but you better be good. Are you?"


yes

I think the pot is a bit too big to check the turn with your 33. Indications are that you have the best hand (with a small chance he's slowplaying a monster), since your aggressive opponent would probably have bet a pair after everyone checked the flop to him. There are 6.5BB in the pot, and (if you have the lead against overcards) you are handing him a 14% chance to pair and cost you up to 7.5BB (since you will probably call if your opponent bets the river, given his aggressive tendencies), while possibly winning 1BB more if you induce a bluff the other 86% of the time he misses. Even if you induce a bluff (or call) 100% of the time he holds a bust hand (presumably ace high) on the river, you still lose a bit here since you are essentially risking 0.14(7.5BB) = 1.05BB in order to win 0.86(1BB) = 0.86BB. And if he calls your turn bet with a worse hand, you win that 0.86BB without letting him draw for free, and can hopefully take a free showdown. In actuality he should check/fold at least some of his bust hands on the river even after you check the turn, somewhat decreasing the money won from bust hands, and further decreasing the overall value of checking the turn.


But there are at least 2 good reasons to check the turn in this spot: 1) he might check raise with a worse hand causing you to fold a winner, or 2) you were planning to fold to a river bet anyway. Given an aggressive opponent, #2 doesn't seem to apply, but if if #1 is much of a possibility, a turn check starts looking better. Game theory suggests your opponent's optimal frequency for a bluff check raise is about 10% (although the possibilities he has 6 outs or is drawing dead also factor into this), which could cost you around 1BB of EV (i.e. you incorrectly fold the 9.5BB pot 10% of the time), wiping out the profit (and then some) you were hoping to eke out by betting. But unless your opponent is quite tricky, I think you should still opt to give him a chance to make the small mistake of laying down his overcards with the thought he is rarely going to check raise with something like ace high.


Anyway, this overlengthy analysis is just to confirm what would be my feeling at the table after he checks the turn, which is "looks like he doesn't have anything and the pot's big enough that I should make more by getting him to fold with 6 outs than by milking him for another bet if he busts out".


So you check behind on the turn and then he checks again on the river. If he's not the type to induce bluffs/bets from aggressive opponents (such as yourself /images/wink.gif), you can probably make a thin value bet, hoping for a call from A or K high. But again, a check raise from a worse hand eats up all your profits, so checking behind is more prudent if you think that is a possibility.