What do The Fish Really Think When You Go Off on Them?

[Pokergod]

I originally posted this on the Mid Stakes HE forum since it was in a 15-30 game, and it was recommended I post it here.

I'm BB and I call one raise with J4h, one other caller besides me and the raiser. Bad play #1.

Flop comes A-3-9 with one heart. I check, MP checks, raiser bets, and I call (why? I'm not sure), back door flush and back door straight draw????, MP folds.

Turn is a non heart 5. I check, raiser bets, and I call. What is going on, have aliens taken over my body? I haven't made this bad of a play since before I read my first poker book. I didn't raise once to try too take it, I just called. Anyway.....

River is a 2, giving me a miracle straight. I check, and raiser checks. I turn over my straight, he shows A-10, and now starts questioning me, talking crap, talking about my mortgage and how I'm not going to be able to pay for it, and basically berates me like I have caught myself berating bad players in the past.

Here's my point though. I know it was a horrible play. I can't explain it, I have no good reason for it. But here's the thing. I didn't care that he was chastising me, I was laughing, at HIM!!!! It was beautiful. I didn't even feel bad, I felt good that he was po'd!!!!

Think about that next time you want to go off on a weak player.

I swear, I don't know what came over me. I guess it was a moment of tilt. Thing was, I was winning a little bit, it was early in the night, and I have no explanation.

Oh well. I hope it doesn't happen again. Just thought I'd give you all a look at things from the "other side". It's scary over there.

-PG

[SpiderMnkE]

I also laugh when a tightie gets outdrawn by a fish and then explodes in the chat room. Then I defend the fish till the end of the earth laughing at how mad I know the tightie book boy is.

I can totally see that a lot of the time the fish don't care they are being berated.. they are laughing their As off because they just took some dudes money.

[Nottom]

Honestly, I think a lot of this is true. I know a few people who enjoys playing crap just so they can suck out and make the tighter players get all worked up.

[fnord_too]

I think it depends on the "fish". If a good (and by good I mean all around good, not just technically correct but also philosophically and emotionally well balanced) player who is advertising or tilting or just goofing around sucks out and gets a tongue lashing, they are going to suspect, probably quite correctly, that the berater is prone to tilt. The berater is not a good player in the definition above.

OTOH, a real fish who doesn't know any better would probably be upset and leave, unless they are naturally confrontational and/or have a thick skin, big ego.

So basically, not to hijack your thread an make it yet another "why you should never chastise" thread, when you berate someone you give good players an edge and chase (most) weak players away. Lose/Lose.

Plus, when you yell at someone for a decision in a card game, you are just being a jerk.

[Cry Me A River]

As far as the fish are concerned, the bottom line is that they just won so any criticism sent their way is just so much noise. Given only a cursory knowledge of the game, winning or loosing is the ultimate determination of play. They won, you lost, so they played better than you. At best they're going to see any comments otherwise as sour grapes. Unless they react to any abuse sent their way (either in kind or by shrinking from it) it's never going to penetrate very far and is just going to be considered as any other trash talk.

"I can't believe you sunk that basket from out there! Luck! Luck! Luck!" is the functional equivalent to "I can't believe you called with that one-outer all the way to the river and hit it! Luck! Luck! Luck!" Neither carry a lot of weight.

[StellarWind]

On Sunday I unknowingly played TPNK against a monster. He flopped a 98.7% chance of winning but I raised the flop and folded his entire field of victims. My play was reasonable but I could have easily folded instead. Then I drew him out nearly perfect-perfect. It was absolutely the worst beating I ever remember inflicting on anyone.

What's the point of this story? I certainly didn't do anything clever during this deal. It's not a monument to my skill. It's not a lot of money.

Yet I am still beaming about this hand two days later. It's great and it's given me a completely new insight on why losing players play poker. It really is awesome when the magic hits.

I'm proud to say my opponent suffered his disaster in dignified silence.

[toots]

I think my standard rejoinder when someone's trashing me for sucking out on him is:

"Boy, I'd really be pissed if I was you."

That usually gets 'em going.

[Dov]

This is great. I'm going to use it sometime.

Thanks

[Reef]

Is that one moment of glory as the fish worth the long run loss?

[Cerril]

I get my revenge by just opening my little 'notes' file and typing 'nit' under their name. Petty, since I really don't pay as much attention to notes as I should, but satisfying.

It also keeps me (as a bystander) from opening my mouth and saying something stupid like 'don't tap the aquarium.' Nits hate that sort of stuff.

Of course, now and then I do enjoy playing devil's advocate and coming up with some convoluted reason why he should have stayed around to draw you out.

'Well 74o were obviously live cards with so many bets going in, then he flopped a backdoor straight draw, a backdoor flush draw, and third pair on the flop. The turn gave him his inside straight draw and of course he had to call it down!'

I enjoy watching them sputter.

As for the fish themselves, the one who won is often just smug and content that he outplayed the self-styled expert (as well he should be! Heck, his demeanor usually deserves the win over that rock). I could certainly give a host of reasons why it's bad to do stupid stuff like that but I don't need to.

The only 'good' reason I can think to be a spoilsport, if you can do it in a way that won't upset the worse players, is for table image. I do tend to get a little scared, especially in a B&M game, when someone who I've pegged as above-average takes a terrible beat to a guy with garbage and is honestly good natured and happy about it. This is someone who knows more than I'd originally been willing to give him credit for.

Last, I just love it when I get that sort of treatment. I saw a flop for one bet in MP with 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif... questionable at best but the table was the sort where if you wanted to see an unraised flop any call in MP or earlier virtually clinched it. Anyway, flop gives me 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/club.gifK /images/graemlins/heart.gif - inside straight draw and backdoor flush. There are enough people in for one bet (and then three, which I'm not thrilled with) that it's worth it for me to see the next card - x(blank)/images/graemlins/heart.gif. So now I'm sitting on a 13 outer, happy enough to call a single bet to the river, something like a J /images/graemlins/heart.gif.

So I win, obviously, and start taking all sorts of fun from the nit who gave me two further bets with a flopped two pair (KT). I figured I'd run with it and just sort of sucked up the abuse rather than try to justify. I think I said something like 'I'll give away a few bets with 69 now and then just for fun' - which I know isn't the fishiest thing I could come up with but about as far as I'd go. He didn't get it. Now of course the guy was a rock but he managed to get sucked out constantly over the rest of my session. I think I'd have felt pretty sour in his position as well.

Wow, way off topic. But I wanted to tell my story.

[Pokergod]

No, that one moment of glory is not worth the long term loss, but that wasn't the point of the post. I'm not sure why I was calling. I have no good explanation. Call it a moment of weakness, call it stupidity (it was), call it whatever you want.

My point is my feeling afterwards, as the fish. I did not feel bad. I knew it was horrible and any play like that is a long term LOOOOOOOOOOOSER, but at that moment, when he was berating me, I felt wonderful.

It's just another argument on why a good player should not complain about suckouts. The fish don't feel worse, you may get them thinking in the right direction, and you don't get the money lost back. So, just don't cry about the beats. Good players can see you got beat by a bad caller, you can see it, the fish don't care, and that is that.

-PG

[paland]

[ QUOTE ]
Is that one moment of glory as the fish worth the long run loss?

[/ QUOTE ]
What long term loss? He did it that time and that win alone will cover the next ten times he does it in the next year. He already won the lucky hand. Do you think that there are gremlins that will make sure he loses some money later to make up for it? The statement you made is a standard poker groupie statement made by those who want everyone to think that they play "correctly" every time and never play a bad hand. I'm willing to bet that you have never won a tournament with over 100 people in it.

[RPatterson]

Bad players always think whatever they did was correct because they won. Even if it was calling all-in with a flush draw without the right drawing odds. If they hit it, it was good. They are too stupid to grasp EV.

And I'm sure they get excited when they make someone mad. They are just so good they make the other players mad, in their own mind.

[blackaces13]

Excellent response. I agree, the original poster can take solace and revel in his bad beat because he "knows" its bad. Any attack on his game is not taken to heart.

Certain other poor players may stop enjoying the game that they are playing for fun anyway because of the hostility and leave earlier than they otherwise would have.

[Gally327]

PALAND-
Get off the kids nuts. Seriously, If you don't get the point he was trying to make then you are either an a$$ or you are an a$$. You pick. I think he was trying to say its not worth starting to play like that on a normal basis because you will lose in the long term and the "glory" of drawing out on people occasionaly is not worth the money. I know that you are a great pro and a WPT champion, a WSOP bracelet holder(15 to be exact) But don't put people down we are all here to learn.
And yes I do realize thr irony that I said dont put people down and I am getting on your case. I just want to show you that it doesn't feel good to do it. I personally like your usual posts but this one youre just being a dick. Get off your high horse becuase no matter how good you think you are there is always someone who thinks they are better.
"Respect though...you gotta earn it...so lets play playa."
Ryan

[RydenStoompala]

[ QUOTE ]
basically berates me like I have caught myself berating bad players in the past

[/ QUOTE ]

So now you know. Giving someone a good, loud poker lesson accomplishes several things: 1) gets the fish out of the game so you can play with more rocks 2) tells the rocks you're tilting 3) teaches the poor fish nothing because he/she is usually too horrified to be listening.

[paland]

Yeah, your right. Sorry about the blather Reef. I was having a bad day.

[Pokergod]

Yes, and this was another point of my post. I have been the berater in the past and I will not do it any longer. It was a crutch and weakness in my own game that will no longer be there. I see now that the only reason I was commenting negatively on other's play was to somehow make myself feel better through trying to make them feel bad, which it did not do anyway.

I just wanted to pass this on to the rest of you, because I know I am not the only one who has said a snide comment or two when he or she has been sucked out on. Take from my experience what you will, but I think I made a significant step forward from playing that one statistically disastrous hand.

-PG

[Rokstar]

I find that when I'm sucked out on it's best to scream your insults and obscenities at the computer screen rather than typing them out for the world to see. You get the therapeutic value of venting, but without the possibility of all the fish at the table leaving or changing their play. It's win-win. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I don't play much non-cyberspace poker though. In a live game you'd probably just have to either suck it up or take a quick "restroom break" to get out all your frustration in a blaze of Yosemite Sam-esque glory.

[toots]

I've played long enough to run into some losing streaks, and/or spend a lot of time steaming.

What I don't get is the need to berate someone for beating you. I mean, that's part and parcel of playing at low limits, and the thing that makes the game good (lots of people chasing a lot of trash) is the same thing that makes these suckouts frequent.

When I've gotten sucked out on, I do occasionally get upset. The upset falls into several categories:

1) Upset at myself for not having a better read on the other guy, if I didn't realize I was beat when the miracle river came up

2) Upset at my luck

3) Upset at me for getting too invested in a hand

4) Upset at the game, for continually putting me in this position

5) Way upset at the deck, for coughing up that card that just flushed my hand down the crapper.

But it never occurs to me to get upset at the winning player (or the dealer) for being the recipient of that luck. It's like getting upset at the granny who buys a massively -EV lottery ticket and just happens to win.

WHich is not to say that I never get upset at other players. Typically, I will when the other player's being a jerk (on his own merits), or when I won, but it was a stressful hand because he was raising far more than his hand would warrant (bluffing, perhaps). Then, I'm likely to spurt out "Well, what was all that raising about???... Not that I mind."

I take my winnings, make my notes on the player and move on.