How much will "no arm" get?

[Toro]

In the Spring of 2003, "no arm" Garciaparra turned down a 4 year $60 million contract and then in the fall of 2003 a 4 year $48 million contract.

Instead of being so upset with his former team, he should fire his agent. So how much do you all project he'll get on the open market this fall when becomes a free agent. I'm guessing he'll be lucky to get $10 million and it'll probably be 3 years.

Disclosure: In the interest of full disclosure the nickname "no arm" was dubbed by arguably the greatest sports talk show caller of all time, the late "Butch from the Cape". The guy used to get me so aggravated but he was entertaining as hell and "right on" about Nomar's arm. You'll all find out soon enough Cubbie fans.

[kyro]

Nah, I think the Angels will shell out big bucks for him. I can't see him making the 15 offered by theo and the gang, but perhaps more than 12.

My guess: 12M < Nomar (my achilles feels fine you douches) Garciaparra < 15M

[ThaSaltCracka]

I think he will get less than the 4 year $60 mill. I would guess something like a 3-4 year deal about 12 mill a year.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Wow. A mention of Butch on 2+2 /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I think what made Butch most annoying was that he was often right. Sports-talk radio has not been the same since his passing.

But enough of that. D&C mentioned today that Peter Gammons had spoken to a couple of major league scouts who both stated they rated Nomar as the *worst* defensive ss in the game today.

Wow. Big crash and burn for the guy John Stearns once called "Mark Belanger who can hit."

[Toro]

The Angels are tapped out and need pitching. And the Dodgers like their shortstop. The market is real small for this guy. He's not as good as Tejada so I don't see him getting Tejada money.

[ThaSaltCracka]

I think Rich Aurillia could battle him for that "crown".

I guess we will have to see how he finishes out the year...

[bosoxfan]

Tejada got 12 million a year when he signed last year. I don't see anyone thinking Nomar is worth more now then Tejada was last year. I'll guess around 10 a year for 4 years.

The thing that pissed me off about Butch was he would call JT the brick at night and then the Big Show in the afternoon and read from the same script. He did know what he was talking about though.

[Toro]

I heard that Butch used to this, call all the sport's talk shows with same "script". But what the heck were you doing, listening to sports talk 24/7? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[bosoxfan]

I was working nights at the time and heard the big show on the way into work and JT on the way home. That did sound kind of sad. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[andyfox]

I don't understand why Red Sox fans are so down on Nomar. Here's his record with the team from 1997, his first full year, through 2003. 2001 is left out since he was out for vitually the entire year:

Batting average:
.306
.343
.357
.372
.310
.301

Home Runs:
30
35
27
21
24
28

RBI:
98
122
104
96
120
105

Runs:
122
111
103
104
101
120

Hits:
209
195
190
197
197
198

A .323 lifetime batting average. A matching .323 batting average, with 7 home runs in 25 games, in the post-season.
Gee, what a terrible player.

Hey, I'm a Yankee fan. I'm glad he's with the Cubs now.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

The guy *was* very very good. He is now rated the worst defensive ss in baseball (even below Derek "Past the Diving" Jeter). He stunk up the stretch run and the playoffs last year, and this year pulled a Terry Glenn by faking an injury.

He was gone at the end of this year and had threatened to sit for a good portion of the remainder of this year because of an injury that has miraculously cleared up now that he's out of town,

In the end, he turned into a fraud. We can win just as many World Series' without him as we did with him. Maybe more?

[Toro]

He was a great player for many years and definitely a fan favorite. But Red Sox fans are very fickle. We/they turned on Ted Williams, Yaz and other players of lesser stature. It probably is due to no championships since 1918 and a fan base that is very passionate about sports. You know the axiom about a thin line between love and hate.

His popularity probably started to wane after his wrist injury which caused him to miss almost a whole season. The next season he was still good, but not outer worldly. Then last year he really stunk it up for the last 6 weeks of the season and the playoffs(1 ribbie).

Then turning down the lucrative contract offer and the suspicion that he was bagging it this year, that's plenty for Red Sox fans.

[bosoxfan]

A good article on the subject

web page (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/040802)

[Toro]

What a great article! Thanks.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
We can win just as many World Series' without him as we did with him. Maybe more?

[/ QUOTE ] yeah ZERO!

[B-Man]

Disclaimer: As many of you know, I am a die-hard Red Sox fan.

The Red Sox just traded an all-star shortstop and a very good outfield prospect for 2 mediocre players. As Andy pointed out, check Nomar's career numbers--they are better than any other shortstop in baseball not named A-Rod. This trade makes absolutely no sense to me. Even though Nomar had become a bit of a clubhouse cancer (it is very telling to me that *nobody* on the Red Sox spoke out against the trade, or slammed management the next day--his teammates sure weren't sad to see him go), and there was no way he was re-signing in the off-season, couldn't they have gotten more? Shouldn't they have gotten more? Two weeks ago, they were talking about trading him for Randy Johnson! I think the Cubs made out like bandits in this deal.

You don't trade a star for two mediocre players.

As for Nomar allegedly lying about needing to go on the DL, in order to motivate/force the Sox to trade him, if that is true, he's a scumbag, and the comparisons to Terry Glenn are fair on at least one level (though Glenn was/is a complete dog, and Nomar always gave 100% when he stepped onto the field). I'm just not sure what to believe on that issue.

I think Nomar dropped from a superstar to an all-star when he hurt his wrist a few years ago, but he is still a very good hitter. I think the Sox will regret this trade. I hope I am wrong...

============
As for Butch from the Cape, he was more-prepared to go on the air than many of the hosts on WEEI, but his nickname for Nomar was pretty stupid. Nomar has lost a ton of range due to his achilles injury, but he's always had a very strong arm (though at times erratic).

[Uston]

Andy, would you still like Jeter if he did nothing but sulk for months on end, refused to talk to teammates, refused to play in certain key divisional games, and faked injuries? If your answer is "yes", then what's the matter with you?

[ThaSaltCracka]

B-Man, hell hath freezed over because I agree with your assesment. The Red Sox totally blew this entire thing, with a little help from Nomar's agent.

This whole situation reminds me of the Johnson-M's situation except two things are different. The M's got 3 good players in the trade, and RJ wasn't injured, he simply wasn't trying. Then he goes to Houston and poof! everything is different. The he gets a fat contract from Arizona the next season.... I see the same thing happening here, except he stays in Chicago.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

You don't trade a star for two mediocre players.

You don't, but Nomar is no longer a star and neither Cabrera nor Minkiewicz are mediocre (unless you think winning a gold glove is meaningless). Maybe not all-stars, but definitely much better than average.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

You can keep saying they blew it, but I say they are a much better TEAM than they were last Friday.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
You don't, but Nomar is no longer a star and neither Cabrera nor Minkiewicz are mediocre (unless you think winning a gold glove is meaningless). Maybe not all-stars, but definitely much better than average.

[/ QUOTE ]
Kurn, go ahead and tell yourself this, I am sure it makes you feel better, but facts and stats don't lie. Both Cabrera and Mienkiewitz are average players, nothing more, nothing less. Neither hits all that well, but both field pretty well. They are just like Pokey.

[ThaSaltCracka]

they may play LIKE a TEAM better, but the TEAM is not better.

[B-Man]

Cabrera won the gold glove in 2001, and from what I have read, his defense has slipped since then. He's not as good a defensive shortstop as Pokey.

So they got two good defensive players, neither of whom is a good hitter.

Nomar is still a .300+ hitter with power, as he's always been. He's never going to hit .370 again, but I'll take a guy who hits .320 and gets a lot of extra-base hits any day of the week.

I agree Nomar's defense has gone way downhill, but the Sox still didn't get anywhere near fair value on this deal.

The only possible upside is if the team is more motivated because Mr. Sourpuss has left the building.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

With Mienkievicz I agree he's an AL version of JT Snow, but I think Boston fans will be quite pleased with Cabrera's hitting. The point is, Nomar wasn't going to perform his best *here*, so he had to go.

Time will tell.

[ThaSaltCracka]

I will total agree with you that he had to be traded. I just think they really got the short end of the stick, but I guess they couldn't settle for prospects because this year is probably their best chance for a WS, so they had to go for it. I am surpirised they couldn't work out a deal with Johnson and Arizona.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

He's not as good a defensive shortstop as Pokey.

Nobody is.

Nomar is still a .300+ hitter with power, as he's always been.

No more 'roids, no more power.

Sox still didn't get anywhere near fair value on this deal.

Perhaps, but maybe the rest of the league has a better understanding of his true value.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I am surpirised they couldn't work out a deal with Johnson and Arizona.


I think the D-Backs had no intention of letting him go, thus set a price that nobody would meet. My understanding is they wanted like the Yankees 3 best prospects *plus* Posada.

[bosoxfan]

It was my understanding that Johnson wanted no part of coming to Boston.

[B-Man]

[ QUOTE ]


Nomar is still a .300+ hitter with power, as he's always been.

No more 'roids, no more power.

[/ QUOTE ]

How can you possibly back that up? Coming into this season, he'd been in the top 10 in the league in extra-base hits every year but 2001, including last year, when he hit 37 doubles, 13 triples and 28 home runs. Six (6) players in the AL had more extra-base hits last season. He's always had between 73 and 85 extra-base hits (except for 2001). Last year he had 78.

Why do we always have to slam people on the way out? If you want to rip his attitude, by all means go ahead, but don't rip on his production.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

There were different opinions on that. The main thing was, the D-Backs had to make a deal first, then present it to Johnson. I don't think the D-Backs ever agreed to a deal with anybody.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

If you want to rip his attitude, by all means go ahead, but don't rip on his production.

Fair enough.

[jwvdcw]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We can win just as many World Series' without him as we did with him. Maybe more?

[/ QUOTE ] yeah ZERO!

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure that was his point.

[jwvdcw]

they needed defensive help and they got it...good trade.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
they needed defensive help and they got it...good trade.

[/ QUOTE ] You really summed it all up right there didn't you. They needed defensive help, and they managed to get that by trading away a very good hitter, while greatly lowering the playing time of another good hitter, so that their defense could be sealed up.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

while greatly lowering the playing time of another good hitter,

Who??? Kevin MIllar???

[ThaSaltCracka]

Millar started off slow, however his bat was most certainly heating up. He had a really good July, and its likely he could continue that, but with his playing time limited, who knows.

[hetron]

The Red Sox remind me a lot of the New York Mets in terms of how they are always trying to keep up with the Yankees. In trying to do so, they both fall short in two ways:

1. Both the Mets and the Red Sox have the habit of being "rumored" to be interested in players, and then having
the deal fall apart because of small monetary differences. The Yankees don't let that happen. If they are in the market for a superstar, 3-4 million here or there isn't going to cause the deal to fall through. Ever. Both the Mets and the Red Sox had this happen at different times when negotitating with A-Rod, and in both situations the two teams a) looked like incompetent cheapskates, and b) looked like they were teasing their fans.

2. The most important thing about the Yankees is the atmosphere that the post George suspension crew has been able to create in the Bronx. The professional attitude is just pervasive. Players don't bitch to the media, bitch about contracts, or any of that nonsense. Even in a huge media controversey frenzied city like NY, you have barely heard a peep of discontent from inside the Yankees club house in almost 8 years. Players understand that once they come to the Yanks they are expected to act like winners and professionals. "Problem" players suddenly don't seem to be too much of a problem once they put on the pinstripe. Compare that with the bickering, strife and turmoil you have seen with the Sox and Mets over the same period of time and it is easy to see why they might imitate but have never been able to duplicate.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Millar had a very good 1st half of '03 and was dismal the rest of that year and most of this year until last month. Long-term (an I don't have the stats in front of me) I doubt he's much better a hitter than Mientkievicz, and could still star against lefties instead of McCarty.