Three random NL questions from a limit player

[m2smith2]

OK, I’m not ashamed to admit it – I learned this game playing limit and SL, and I’m trying to learn NL a few bucks at a time. I got TJ’s book because CP pumped it, and it’s long on anecdotes but I didn’t find it all that useful practically (the Psychology of poker, a 2+2 book, criticizes the type of “advice” you get from TJ’s book).

I have a few random questions for the group:

1) How in the world do you dodge a slow play on-line? When the board pairs on the flop and it’s checked to you with, say, top pair, how do you get away from betting this when you’re playing against people you’ve never seen, and will probably never see again? I think this is a NL question in that a SP isn’t nearly so costly if someone flops trips against you.

2) How do you bet draws in NL? Certain draws, like OE straights and 4-flushes are automatic in limit, but in NL you’re really trying to keep betters off your back it seems to me. My view (as a novice) is that you’re attempting to prevent a bet that takes you completely off your draw. I understand the implied odds potential in NL may make a call profitable, but when your out of position, you hope leading out will keep a huge bet off of you. Thoughts?

3) Finally, what about raising from the BB in a tournament setting? What’s worthy of a raise in a situation where your fold equity goes way down? It’s easy to run into someone slow-playing when you have a lot of limpers, so I would think only super-premium hands are worth a raise. And, in a tournament setting (as an aside), even that seems like an iffy proposition.

Thanks in advance.

[unagi]

i consider myself to be a mediocre/fair player - i definitely win, but i only play at the 25NL levels where all i need is some patience and find a table with people dumber than me (which is usually pretty easy). i'll try to address your questions, but take it with a grain of salt as i'm obviously no ciaffone, sklansky, or cloutier.

1) if i flop the top pair on a paired board (i'm guessing you're talking about action on the flop itself), i'll often bet the pot if i'm in position or if there aren't too many others involved. it partially depends on what pairs up, as well.. people are more likely to have the A when the board is AQA, than they are to have the 5 when the board is 5Q5. this isn't absolute by any means, but obviously makes some sense. i'm generally a tight-passive and tend to get enough respect at my tables that if i get a caller, i'm looking at either a draw, another person with Top pair high kicker, or the set. I keep the bets conservative (usually bet again on the turn if only 1 caller, maybe check if two or more) and if someone starts to come at me with some significant strength, i'll often make the laydown (depending on the player, of course)

2) again depends.. i don't do it the same every time, as players will begin to catch on and always make you pay to see it. on a small pot, i'm willing to bet the pot size in hopes of taking it right there. on a medium sized pot, i probably won't bet the pot size but enough (as long as my stack and potential callers' stacks are deep enough to justify the odds) to keep them off my back. if the pot is large, the folding equity is definitely gone and my hope is to see the turn for cheap (or, if the odds are right, all-in on the flop after someone has bet - this happens less often, but if you have a flush draw and are getting 3:1 or higher from the pot on your 2:5 shot (and can support the swings, cuz you will obviously miss 60% of the time) it can be worth it to go all-in on the flop, before people see the scare flush card or while they still have hopes of catching what they might consider an out. i hope this clarified things, but i wouldn't say betting draws has really been my strongest point - you'll definitely want a second and third and fourth/etc opinion here. the important thing is to always keep odds in mind. if your opponent is aggressive and will always raise you when he suspects that you're betting on the draw, your betting is obviously detrimental and your draws might be better saved for another player (everything comes down to odds)

3) well, it's been forever since i've played a tournament - other than recently when i lost a few in a row and decided that they were no longer my thing. so, i'll keep my thoughts to myself on this one.

[Dov]

Be aggressive. Learn how far you can push people and with what size bets. Become their worst nightmare.

Usually your cards wont matter. If they are scared, then every bet they make actually means something until they start playing back at you.

As i said in another post, you win 100% of the pots they dont call you down on.

This is not a small thing. It takes a long time to get it right, but it is easier in NL where you can bully people more.

Before you start playing look around online and watch some peole play. Railbird for at least an hour or until you start to figure things out. Then do it again on another table. There is no better way for you to learn this without putting your own money in the pot.

GL

[Robk]

1. depending on your competition, # of players, your kicker, flop texture, etc top pair may not be worth betting. if you bet something approaching the size of the pot and are called (especially by someone who checked), give up on the hand barring other considerations

2. you need to think about position, and the quality of your opponents. check out Super System for good info on this.

3. Not my specialty but to my understanding stick to excellent hands and bluffs and you'll be OK. TPFAP talks about this.

[LetsRock]

FWIW, I don't play NL on-line except for the occasional tourney. I do play in weekly NL home game, and I'm really enjoying NL poker. Limit really is a grind compared to NL.

1)If someone flops a set you're on your own. Even live, you have to have a monster read on someone to detect that. Some things do come down to luck you know. The hardest part is knowing when to get out of the way when they play back at you. You need some sort of read.

2) I'll bet OE and nut flush draws (I rarely push non-nut flush draws) just like in limit, especially from good position. You have to remember, that by opening, you have a chance to take the pot right there, which is one reason why it works.

3) In NL, you can get other callers to fold! That's what makes it great. You can raise a rediculous amount hoping to take it down right there. If you get callers, you're out of position, so now you have to tread carefully. I rarely raise AK, AQ type hands from the blinds in NL unless I have opponents who will respect my lead bet on the flop (if I miss the flop). AA, KK QQ, raise enough to take it down now and hope you hit a set if you get callers.

[Nick Moore]

I must point out that TJ's book mainly covers tournaments for holdem. If you want to learn no limit in a side game, you need a different book. Super/System is very good for that. The thing in no limit is that you probably don't want to see the river unless you go all in, or you have a lock, in which case you wish you were all in. The best way to win in no limit is to make other people fold and give you their money, not take their money with a better hand, but you need the better hand eventually. Bet your draws, if you get raised go all in. Don't play when losing an all in pot would break your entire bankroll. I know these are no brainers, but TJ doesn't cover it, and if you're learning still, it may not be obvious. And don't ever base your raise on some equation for multiplying the blinds. Base it on the other people. If you want to raise preflop but are worried about callers, raise enough so there aren't any callers. Remember this too. In nolimit, you probably only want to play a heads up pot. its easier to force one person out than two. Keep that in mind.

[girgy44]

3. when raising from the BB w a few limpers in u had better have KK AA, or maybe QQ, AK, no way w JJ

[cnfuzzd]

I too am making this transition,, and its fun. I could pretend to answer your question, or even really answer it, but i dont really know enough. I would recommend going to the small stakes no limit and pot limit forum under the texas hold em grouping. Several of the posts from the past week or so have been for beginers. Enjoy

peace

john nickle

[Smasharoo]

1) How in the world do you dodge a slow play on-line? When the board pairs on the flop and it’s checked to you with, say, top pair, how do you get away from betting this when you’re playing against people you’ve never seen, and will probably never see again? I think this is a NL question in that a SP isn’t nearly so costly if someone flops trips against you.


Largely, you don't. The good news is that no one else ussually does either. The long term benefit from playing agressively outweighs the short term feeling of being a rube when you get slowplayed.


2) How do you bet draws in NL? Certain draws, like OE straights and 4-flushes are automatic in limit, but in NL you’re really trying to keep betters off your back it seems to me. My view (as a novice) is that you’re attempting to prevent a bet that takes you completely off your draw. I understand the implied odds potential in NL may make a call profitable, but when your out of position, you hope leading out will keep a huge bet off of you. Thoughts?


It's very situation dependent. A nut flush draw is much diffrent than a Qhig flush draw. I tend to play nut draws agressively and not nut draws passively.


3) Finally, what about raising from the BB in a tournament setting? What’s worthy of a raise in a situation where your fold equity goes way down? It’s easy to run into someone slow-playing when you have a lot of limpers, so I would think only super-premium hands are worth a raise. And, in a tournament setting (as an aside), even that seems like an iffy proposition.


Position becomes much more important in NL, I'd tend to raise with only teir one hands out of the BB.