Most annoying situation in poker.....

[Crispyk]

You have JJ 3500 chips... blinds 25-50 you raise a limper to 300. Everyone folds to him he calls. Flop comes out Q 7 4 no flush draw. He checks.... and now you have to bet.. knowing that if the Q has helped him he's going to check raise you here. If there isn't any way of avoiding being checkraised.. how aggressive should you bet?

[soxfan70]

I like to bet 1/2 the pot here. If he doesnt have the Q, it looks to him like a bet that is begging to be called, and most will likely fold. If he raises you, you don't feel like throwing up when you hit the fold button, and wait for a better spot.

[mrbaseball]

[ QUOTE ]
a bet that is begging to be called

[/ QUOTE ]

That concept is beyond the grasp of many online players so they will indeed call it. When you don't want a call at all. I prefer a potsized bet. It says I have 'em and I'm protecting my hand from crap draws and if you wanna pay me off come along then.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

[ QUOTE ]
I like to bet 1/2 the pot here. If he doesnt have the Q, it looks to him like a bet that is begging to be called, and most will likely fold. If he raises you, you don't feel like throwing up when you hit the fold button, and wait for a better spot.

[/ QUOTE ]
...and if he calls? Repeat on a raggedy turn?

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Bet the pot. You'll still have 50 BB left if you have to fold.

BTW - if you find it annoying that someone calls you when you raise w/JJ and then checks to you when a single overcard flops, start playing JJ like its 66.

[Potowame]

The only problem that I see with betting 1/2 the pot here is a very aggresive player will see this for what it is, Weakness. You will get Check Raised with a 1/2 pot bet more, and with lesser hands (77-1010) AK or even two crap cards that caught second pair. When you bet heads up, bet in away that says I know I am ahead here, and if he comes back over the top of that, you know you aren't.

[Crispyk]

I just find the unavoidable checkraise annoying. This situation happened to me in the WCOOP 5 yesterday... I bet about 500 into an 1100 pot. He raised me back to 1000 and i folded. I used to feel that a more aggressive bet was needed like around a pot sized bet. But i found they almost always throw in if they've hit the overcard. But the weak bet also sets you up for a bluff reraise from an agressive player. So i'm still stumped....

[Potowame]

See my post

[SossMan]

Bet the same amount that you would bet with AQ in that spot. I consistantly bet slightly less than the pot. If you do otherwise, you are leaking information. You may not know you are, but the good players will notice.

[Crispyk]

Thanks Soss... and everyone else... i appreciate the help here.

[soxfan70]

That was my line with this type of hand for a while, and depending on the opponent, still is. I just think you can gather the same type of information without putting so many chips at risk.

[Toro]

I don't usually do this, I usually make a pot sized bet, but Saturday, late stages of a multi I had 10,10 in a very similar situation and I checked the flop with an overcard after my opponent checked. We ended up checking the hand all the way down and he showed 9,9.

Probably not an ideal way to play it but it worked out that time. Someone in the chat box commended me for the way i played the hand but I don't know if he was just blowing smoke up my rear end.

[Potowame]

I agree with weaker players, you can bet half the pot. But as Sossman says, if that is not a standered bet for you, it will be picked up on quickly by a good aggresive player, and he will more than likley reraise you with a weaker hand, or put alot of pressure on you on the turn.
So if you bet half the pot a weaker Passive player will fold without a Queen, Call with one. A Aggressive Strong player , May fold a weaker hand, May Come back over the top with a better hand or a weaker hand, May call and pot bet or push into you on the turn, no matter what comes off.

My line would be a Min of T500 into that T675 pot.

[tripdad]

the whole idea here is to disguise your hand...any hand for that matter.

IMO, you must come up with a "standard" bet which you will use whether you flop a set, or flop 2nd pair. mine is roughly 3/4 the pot. i adjust off of that depending on factors OTHER THAN what my cards are. for instance, if the pot is multiway with a flush draw and i want to protect a big hand, i will overbet the pot to ensure that if opponent #1 calls, opponent #2 will still be denied odds to call with a flush draw. another factor would obviously be stack sizes. if i am against a short stack, the need to bet the pot is not there. you can bet, say, half HIS stack. if he plays, he will come over the top, which you will obviously call.

hope this helps.

cheers!

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
the whole idea here is to disguise your hand...any hand for that matter.

IMO, you must come up with a "standard" bet which you will use whether you flop a set, or flop 2nd pair. mine is roughly 3/4 the pot. i adjust off of that depending on factors OTHER THAN what my cards are. for instance, if the pot is multiway with a flush draw and i want to protect a big hand, i will overbet the pot to ensure that if opponent #1 calls, opponent #2 will still be denied odds to call with a flush draw. another factor would obviously be stack sizes. if i am against a short stack, the need to bet the pot is not there. you can bet, say, half HIS stack. if he plays, he will come over the top, which you will obviously call.

hope this helps.

cheers!

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, yes, and...yes.

you play goot

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I just find the unavoidable checkraise annoying.

But what are your alternatives. You raise with JJ and you expect to see at least 1 overcard about half the time. OK, there it is. Now your opponent checks or bets. If he checks, he'll either fold to your bet or reraise you (maybe call if there's a draw), The only way to avoid the frustration is to play JJ for set value only.

[gergery]

[ QUOTE ]
I just find the unavoidable checkraise annoying.

But what are your alternatives. You raise with JJ and you expect to see at least 1 overcard about half the time. OK, there it is. Now your opponent checks or bets. If he checks, he'll either fold to your bet or reraise you (maybe call if there's a draw), The only way to avoid the frustration is to play JJ for set value only.

[/ QUOTE ]



What do you do if he checkraises then? Fold?

Wouldn’t he have a big profitable play vs. you whenever you hold JJ-88 then?
Mind you, I don’t have a better alternative.

--Greg

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
If there isn't any way of avoiding being checkraised..

[/ QUOTE ]

The only way to avoid being check raised is to fold for free, check behind and take the free card, or go all in.
I don't like any of those options, so make whatever bet that you normally make when you raised preflop and the flop is favorable.

[AceKQJT]

I think J-J is a tricky hand pre-flop. When blinds are small and the stacks are deep, I tend to play JJ more for set value. I wouldn't be raising it from early position.

As the blinds progress and the stacks become more shallow ( maybe 75/150 blinds and higher), I tend to be much more aggressive withh JJ.

So...deep stacks, I play J-J like 9-9. Shallow stacks, I play J-J like Q-Q.

HOWEVER...Now that we have seen the flop, I make the same bet I would have with A-Q (barring any reads on Villian).

As far as reads go:

I moneyed in a Super a week or two ago. In one of the early blind levels, I 3x Re-raised an UTG raise while holding QQ. UTG had been making a lot of EP raises, and had won several pots by betting out on the flop when scare cards hit (he never showed down). So the flop comes down K-x-x and he bets 1/2 the pot. I called. Turn came blank. He pushes (he has me covered by 300-400). I call and he shows A-J (no pair). He tilts and busts out a few hands later.

Player reads can be important in this situation