10-10 utg

playing 10-20 and limp with 10-10.game is passive and players will call with most A'sx or big cards. to my supprise there are seven of us see the flop. flop comes 10,7,4 with two spades. i bet am raised all call two bets i reraise and raiser reraises. all call. turn 2D. i bet all call. river kD now there are three d on the board. six players behind me i check and it is checked aroound. i win. should i have bet the river? only one player showed--a 10-6 off.

Preflop, you should open-raise with pocket tens despite the game being passive. You probably have the best hand and you must make your opponents pay to chase you. At least, you should not give the blinds free plays. Who knows, but your raise may drive out some of the players behind you.


You played fine once the flop came except that you should bet the river. You have a set and will get calls from many worse hands. The runner-runner diamond flush possibility is too remote to worry about.

In a game as loose as this one, I favor just limping in with a pair of 10s in early position. These types of opponents are not going to lay down trashy overcards before the flop just because it is two bets. You are probably going to need to flop a set or get an extremely favorable flop in order to win it. Seven players called a capped flop and went to the river on this hand. This isn't the kind of game where you can do stratgic thinning of the field pre-flop. And although you probably have the "best hand" pre-flop, you are going to have a tough time contending past the flop unless it is favorable.


I agree that betting the river is correct, but I don't think that a runner-runner flush is actually that remote. He has six opponents. By random distribution of the cards alone, there is probably about a 30% chance that one of them has two diamonds. But despite this, there is too much value in this hand to check it, as there are apt to be multiple callers. And even if someone has a flush, it is not inevitable that he would be raised, since many of the flushes will be small ones and the holders may be reluctant to raise with them.

Who cares if they all call? Raise for value with a solid hand. I really disagree with the "everyone is calling anyway" attitude that keeps people from raising preflop with premium stuff. There are reasons to raise besides thinning the field. Besides, in this game you don't have to worry about thinning it too much. Nothing wrong with 6-8 ways for 2 bets with this hand.


Now if the game was just a shade tighter where your raise might narrow the field to exactly 3 or 4 opponents, then you might want to consider limping.

I expect you see a profit whatever you do preflop, as long as you don't fold /images/wink.gif. But I prefer to call in these spots, because I would rather see the flop with 7 players for 1 bet than see it with 5 players for 2 bets, since I probably need to make a set to win in either case. Besides reducing your variance a bit by just calling, the extra player or two you probably let in should increase your payout for flopping a set if they catch a decent piece of the flop along with you, while not really decreasing your win rate by much.

It would take a threat of bodily injury to keep me from betting the river. If someone made a flush, well dems da breaks, but usually you get paid in several spots by trashy pairs because the pot has gotten so big no one wants to fold if they have any chance to win. If you can't bet a set for value on the end here with no straight possibilities and only a back door flush (or an impossibly played KK) to beat you, you are pretty much never betting less than the nuts on the river, which is surely a large mistake.

Pat,


IMO, being in this type of game is all the more reason to raise UTG, so as to get nore money in the pot when you have what may be the best hand- you have little need to fear raises(not that

with 10-10 you will anyway).


I dream of playing in games such as this one,

where you have top set and are getting raised on the flop!


Why not bet the river? If it gets raised and reraised, you can throw your hand away, secure in the knowledge that you're beaten, since it appears

you'll only get raised if you're facing one or more backdoor flush draws that got there.


perfidious

The problem with this is that you are out of position, and you really have no way of knowing how the hand is going to develop. I would prefer 7 or 8 limpers to 5 players who call two bets. This is not a hand like aces or kings where you are going to go to the river a very high percentage of the time that you play. Some of your value with this hand is inevitibly be lost when you are forced to lay it down before the river. And when you make the pot bigger, the cost to you of giving this value up is that much higher.


If you were in back and there were already 5 limpers ahead of you, then I would agree.


Moreover, with his position I doubt that there is a huge difference in his EV whether he raises or limps. That's why I framed my response to Jim Brier as what "I prefer"; its largely a matter of what situation you are most comfortable with.


The more significant issue in the question really had to do with whether to bet or check the river. Here its not a small difference, and betting is pretty much mandatory.

"IMO, being in this type of game is all the more reason to raise UTG, so as to get nore money in the pot when you have what may be the best hand"


This argument that you and Jim make doesn't make sense.


Here is a paraphrase of your reasoning:

------------------------------------------------


Situation X


1. Decide if I have the probable best hand


2. When in situation X Raise.

--------------------------------------------------

Poker is not that trivial.


See Coilean'response to Clarmeister for what I view is the correct logic.for this PARTICULAR

situation (10,10 UTG, loose game ) and a call is slightly better.


D.

Bet the river. Checking is way too pessimistic.

Preflop, you should open-raise with pocket tens despite the game being passive. You probably have the best hand and you must make your opponents pay to chase you. At least, you should not give the blinds free plays.


If you feel that way, does that mean that there is not any kind of game in which you think limping UTG w/ TT is the best play? What about a game that is slightly tighter than the one he was in?

The point of raising a passive game with TT under the gun isn't to thin the field; it is to raise for value. TT is very likely the best hand before the flop, and it is reasonably likely to be the best hand on the flop, whether or not one's opponents are holding trashy overcards.


The money you make by raising and getting called and having the pocket tens hold up more than makes up for the times when you raise and have to let go of the hand when a big card flops and you run into substantial betting action.

> The problem with this is that you are out of

> position, and you really have no way of knowing

> how the hand is going to develop.


You've got exactly the same problem with aces in that spot, don't you? And aren't you going to raise your aces for value, even when you think that five or six players might trail in after you? Aren't you?

thank you all for the great posts. my thinking is more solid for them. i got chicken on the river and should and will bet these situations in the future.if i remember correctly this was the most players in any one hand all nite so it wasn't as loose as this hand. thanks again,Patrick

David,


In most games, I'd simply call too; I agree with you that poker can't be played mechanically.


BTW, I had read Coilean's note and I think his approach has merit in some situations- it's just that I'm not keen on letting the blinds in for a free play here.


perfidious

I would still raise with tens under-the-gun. In a tight game, it is even more likely that you thin the field which is good with this hand.


Overall, in a loose-passive game I think pocket tens is right on the cusp between open-raising and open-limping. With pocket nines I would limp and with pocket jacks I would raise. I could go either way with pocket tens but my preference is to raise. In a tough-tight high limit game, I believe early position play becomes a raise or fold situation and open-limping from early position should be avoided.

Close between raising and calling. At least don't look at one then muck.


90% of the time I raise with pocket tens in any position.

No. Aces and Kings are very different from tens. You are not forced to lay them down as often when they are in fact the best hand. Also Aces and Kings are much less sensitive to the number of opponents. Medium pairs do well against a small number of opponents and against a large number of opponents, and have most difficulty against an intermediate number of opponents.


Moreover, as I said I don't think its a huge difference whether you raise or limp.