I can play this on the button ...

[StellarWind]

... if I play very well post flop. Or so I'm told /images/graemlins/smile.gif. How would you handle the flop crisis? I haven't been here very long. My general impression is that UTG+1 and MP2 are typical members of a loose-passive table. Still anything is possible as I don't actually know them.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks,

Flop: (5 SB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, Hero folds, ...

[MarkL444]

good fold. even if you have the best hand on the flop (doubtful), a flush or broadway straight will likely catch up to you.

[sfer]

Loose passives betting and raising make me think TP is no good. The pot is small. Buh-bye. Good fold.

[House-Lion]

I'm not to found of playing KTo from the button, and I think you should considder raising pre-flop to get rid of the blinds. (If they never fold to a raise, you could just call or even fold.)

Tough fold, one you probably have to learn to do when playing KTo.

[spamuell]

I quite like a raise pre-flop, I think it's pretty likely you have the best hand and making the blinds pay is good.

If you do raise pre-flop, blinds call, and the flop action pans out the same, do you think you make this fold given that the pot is twice as large?

[MarkL444]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not to found of playing KTo from the button, and I think you should considder raising pre-flop to get rid of the blinds. (If they never fold to a raise, you could just call or even fold.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldnt disagree with you more. Why invest more money in a pot that you likely dont have the best hand in? KTo is a marginal hand at best, there are only a few situations where its playable and the ONLY time its raise-worthy if from the CO or Button first in .

Mark

[MAxx]

good fold, that is we let you play it:).

Just a self check on PF play... what do you all normally do with k-10o and q-10o in MP-2 or MP-3when no one has opened yet? Is the best play to muck it without thinking twice?

[Kluddeludde]

My general impression is that UTG+1 and MP2 are typical members of a loose-passive table.

This hand should be raised preflop every time under these circumstances.

Kludde

[Kluddeludde]

I would raise with it.

Kludde

[Kluddeludde]

Raise preflop. The rest is fine.

Kludde

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
Why invest more money in a pot that you likely dont have the best hand in? KTo is a marginal hand at best, there are only a few situations where its playable and the ONLY time its raise-worthy if from the CO or Button first in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lovely as it is that you say this, all you are doing is just that, saying it. Why are there only a few situations when it is playable? Why is it only raise-worthy from the CO or button first in? Yes, KTo is pretty bad but the limpers are very bad and will certainly pay you off after the flop if you pair, and the blinds are in and KTo is very likely better than whatever hands that they have thus you should raise.

Edit: To clarify, the bad players will limp with AT, KQ and KJ but they're also gonna be limping with K8o and T7s and a bunch of hands which you beat and even dominate.

[MAxx]

I have been also with K-10... and against a few bad limpers. Against decent or many limpers, I would fold.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
If you do raise pre-flop, blinds call, and the flop action pans out the same, do you think you make this fold given that the pot is twice as large?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think I've trapped myself in that case, for better or worse I probably have to keep going.

[SA125]

What would you have done if it was bet and called back to you?

[Kluddeludde]

If you are in late position with many limpers, I would consider looking at the flop for one SB if the limpers are bad. If they are decent, folding is not such a bad idea.

Kludde

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
Just a self check on PF play... what do you all normally do with k-10o and q-10o in MP-2 or MP-3when no one has opened yet? Is the best play to muck it without thinking twice?

[/ QUOTE ]
KTo is significantly better than QTo for stealing purposes.

My default is to open-raise these hands (also K9o) from cutoff but fold from MP3. If I played higher limits maybe I could do more, but usually when I open from MP I expect to play a 3-way pot without having the button.

But I will "think twice" and take a more aggressive position against the right set of opponents.

[Garbonzo]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are in late position with many limpers, I would consider looking at the flop for one SB if the limpers are bad. If they are decent, folding is not such a bad idea.

Kludde

[/ QUOTE ]

He asked about when no one has entered the pot yet.

Personally, I do not limp much with these hands, but there are many game conditions under which I would open raise, and others in which I would fold, specifically with a tricky agressive player(s) left to act behind me.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
What would you have done if it was bet and called back to you?

[/ QUOTE ]
Raise. I'm sure my copy of SSH would explode in flames if I did anything else /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

[Kluddeludde]

[ QUOTE ]
He asked about when no one has entered the pot yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

He also mentioned that he usually fold them if there are many limpers and I merely pointed out that it may be worth to take a look at the flop even in this situation.

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I do not limp much with these hands, but there are many game conditions under which I would open raise, and others in which I would fold, specifically with a tricky agressive player(s) left to act behind me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I rarely limp with these hands either, but there are situations where limping may be the best alternative.

Kludde

[spamuell]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If you do raise pre-flop, blinds call, and the flop action pans out the same, do you think you make this fold given that the pot is twice as large?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I've trapped myself in that case, for better or worse I probably have to keep going.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stellar, I know you realise this but just to clarify to anyone who might be reading this thread, this does not mean that raising is wrong.

[BigEndian]

That doesn't mean it's right either /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Raising here with KTo shouldn't be routine. Raise here if you expect to be able to pick up the pot if they miss or have a very weak holding. This can be likely for a number of reasons, but is not always the case - especially on a loose-passive table. If this is not the case, raising here is not worth it.

- Jim

[Garbonzo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He asked about when no one has entered the pot yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

He also mentioned that he usually fold them if there are many limpers and I merely pointed out that it may be worth to take a look at the flop even in this situation.

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I do not limp much with these hands, but there are many game conditions under which I would open raise, and others in which I would fold, specifically with a tricky agressive player(s) left to act behind me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I rarely limp with these hands either, but there are situations where limping may be the best alternative.

Kludde

[/ QUOTE ]

Roger. Sorry if I sounded snippy, I just meant to point that out.

[Kluddeludde]

Raising here with KTo shouldn't be routine.

On the contrary, I think the raise here is routine given that he described his opponents as loose. You have plenty of equity against this line-up.

Kludde

[Kluddeludde]

No offense taken. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Kludde

[Sarge85]

Oh man,

I'm the only one who thinks folding PF is the best play?

2 Limpers and the blinds is not a hand I want to play KTo against. I don't want to raise it PF, because it's SOOOO marginal after 2 limpers that you'll tie to a pot.

I can see raising first in, but that's about the only circumstance that I'd play this hand.

There was a rash of KJo hands that people were playing that seemed way out of place - now KTo??

Sarge/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[Joe Tall]

I'm the only one who thinks folding PF is the best play?

You can limp with much less on the button here. We are talking about the BUTTON people! The fcking button!

I would likely raise this preflop after 2 limpers and knock out the blinds.

2 Limpers and the blinds is not a hand I want to play KTo against

I actually feel 2 players is optimal for such a hand. Your reverse implied odds when flopping pair increase as there are more and more players in the pot.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Kluddeludde]

Consider the hands that people will limp with at a typical party table, suited connectors, any ace, sometimes any two suited, medium connectors, etc.

More often than not, you will dominate rather than be dominated. I wouldn't worry too much about the blinds either, KTo is usually better than two random hands. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Kludde

[BigEndian]

You say equity, where do you see the equity? True, K-high may be the best hand before the flop but not necessarily a majority of the time. You can't assume a loose-passive table means you play against random hands. Any small amount of equity you may have pre-flop is probably tossed on average when you bet the flop when you miss attempting to pick up the pot. Add to it the times you bet the turn again on a rag (we've all heard the saying good players can bluff once but great players can fire the second round on the turn).

Alternatively, you might check through on the flop or turn, but then you must fold the turn or river to a bet and so you give up some equity to bluffs.

Here's how I would play KTo in this situation:
- Loose-passive table that goes too far (especially an Ace-hunter table), call.
- Tight aggressive table where typically 2-4 see a flop and players know the value of middle pairs (including out of the blinds with a couple of limpers), fold.
- Any table that is giving me too much respect or that "fit-or-folds" their hands, raise.

- Jim

[lil']

If the limpers are poor players (and your average Party 2-4 limper is often a loser), then I would raise pre-flop.

[balkii]

I can't believe people are suggesting to fold KT on the BUTTON after two bad playing limpers.

[ QUOTE ]
I can play this on the button ...

... if I play very well post flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Very well? I don't think it takes an expert to show a profit here with only decent postflop skills. The few times that you are dominated you will not lose as much as you would against better players, and the times you have them dominated you will win much more than you would against better players.

I would probably only raise if a) the blinds were both rather tight or b) the limpers were both just AWFUL. I think limping should be the default play here.

As for the flop...thats pretty tough. If the pot was bigger I think it'd be easy 3-bet. Here, I don't know. You do have the backdoor royal draw...how many outs is that one worth? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif. If you read them to be passive though folding looks good.

[StellarWind]

UTG+1 gave up his hand on the turn. MP1 did not show.

Not seeing a showdown left me with a touch of folder's remorse. I feel better now, thanks.

I think any of the three preflop choices are reasonable. This has to be a very close decision. Note that I did not intend to say that the limpers were awful or anything of the sort. I had not been sitting down very long. The table seemed loose and passive in a normal Party way and the two limpers had done nothing so far to make me think they were special. But I had seen enough to know who the completely mindless calling stations were and these guys weren't them.

[Nate tha' Great]

Listen to Joe. Folding before the flop is awful. You'll have the best hand a *lot* of the time here, and you have the best position.

[Sarge85]

Joe

When you talk, believe me I listen. I guess I'm in a rut. I see my seen flop % rising over 20% and I think of hands like these, and I want to get away from them more and more. Perhaps I'm just trying to get away from them in the wrong spots.

I ran the numbers through Pokerstove, and against 2 limping hands, and players who play any face offsuit or any face suited - KTo is definately wining more than it's fair share.

- but where do I draw the line? A9o--A8o ---- K8o----QTo---J9....

Sarge /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't been here very long. My general impression is that UTG+1 and MP2 are typical members of a loose-passive table. Still anything is possible as I don't actually know them.


[/ QUOTE ]

For this hand, i'd wait til i 'know' them a little better. These would have to be pretty weak limpers for me to play it here. Also pretty weak/predictable postflop. If i'm playing it here, i'm raising it preflop.

KTo is one of my most hated hands. I think it's one of the biggest trap hands in holdem. (think of the flops you get when you hit) I tend to play it much tighter than most on the forum, so my opinion is a bit biased against it. I have a nice inner conflict when i just have to complete with it in the sb for 1/2 bet. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

That said, i think you played the flop fine.

b