Likely a silly question... but one I'd like input on

[lolita16]

As many of you know, I am relatively new to tournament poker but have undertaken it with my usual zeal. I have read about 10 books, watched probably 100 hours of televised tourneys, and this weekend played probably my 20th or so no limit event. I went into this event with a new goal... to play a mistake free tourney. I believe I accomplished this goal with one smallish mistake on a slightly too big raise with AA that got reraised by JJ.

On to the main question. I was doing very well in the Legends of Poker multi rebuy no limit event. I came prepared to rebuy once if necessary if I felt I was playing well and to add on once if necessary. At the break I had about 2500 in chips (no rebuys), and elected to add on once for an additional 500 chips for $300. (this might have also been a small mistake but I felt as if I was playing well and a bit extra wouldn't hurt. After winning the previously mentioned AA hand, I "stole" the blinds with a modest raise ($200 with the blinds at 25/50), and had accumulated about 6500 in chips when the fateful hand occurred. At this point I'm well above average chip stack, with one other stack about the same as mine and one larger stack at my table. We are down to approximately 150 players with a prize pool of about $200,000.

I catch KK under the gun, raise to $225 (blinds still at 25/50) and the other stack roughly same as mine reraises to $500 two spots behind me. All others fold. I study him for a few seconds and am convinced he does not have AA... I move all in (approx 6200 in chips). After a long study of me he asks for a chip count which I count down for him. All this time, my feeling is that he's looking to me to give him some reaction if his hand is beat. Again, I'm sure he does not have AA; I put him on QQ. (he's a solid enough player that I don't think he'd like a coin flip with a hand like AK, but he also doesn't want to fold the best hand.) I have a sinking gut instinct to tell him that I have him beat and let him off the hook. No I do not believe in any form of psychic energy and I truly believe that I simply did not want to risk elimination in what I felt was my best no limit play to date. I stayed silent with my eyes lowered behind my sunglasses when he announced "I call" but made no move for his chips. Again he watched my face and again received no readable reaction from me. (Yes, I realize that I could have forced him to put his chips in at that point due to verbal declaration but I elected not to do so. I did not feel that he was making a move. I truly believe he wanted to fold the hand and wanted some reaction from me that he was correct to do so.) After another 30 or so seconds he sighed, said I have to call, and started moving his chips into the pot. I then turned over my KK, heard him groan loudly, then turn over his QQ. The flop of course contained a queen, no help for KK arrived and it was the end of my best played tourney to date.

I realize that the correct ev play was, without question, the one that I made. I also realize that there is no better spot to get all of your chips in with a chance to double up, except perhaps ace against smaller ace or pair against two undercards. I also believe that had my hand held up, I would have had a reasonable shot of winning this one. This one would have put me the big stack at my table with about 13000 in chips at only the 4th level.

Would any of you consider giving up the ev of knowing that you have a bigger pair to avoid the 20% chance of being put out of the tourney (again I believe that if I had given any indication that he was beat he would have folded preflop), or is this a silly line of thinking to even be concerned with?

Regards-

[M.B.E.]

[ QUOTE ]
Would any of you consider giving up the ev of knowing that you have a bigger pair to avoid the 20% chance of being put out of the tourney (again I believe that if I had given any indication that he was beat he would have folded preflop), or is this a silly line of thinking to even be concerned with?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, Lolita, that's a silly line of thinking.

[fnord_too]

Getting all your chips in in that situation is great. I don't really like the push though. The pot is 800TC, and you but in a whopping overbet. I think most solid tournament players who cannot get a line on you lay down queens here, everyone certainly calls with aces. There are two ways I see to play this:

Raise to 1600 and see what develops. I don't think you can get away if he pushes, especially with your read, but you are much more likely to get all the chips in the center with the best hand by raising about the pot here.

Smooth call and look at the flop. If your read was right, and it was, you have a tremendous advantage even though you were out of position. If a queen or an ace comes you can test the waters and bail if necessary, otherwise you can milk some more chips.

Again, pushing 6200 into a pot that is only 800 is a mistake in my oppinion. You go VERY lucky to be called by a dominated hand. I pass up a lot more +ev situations to ensure staying alive than most of the people who post here would reccomend, but there is no way I don't want my money in as a 4.5 to 1 favorite here. (Almost always I want all my chips in in this situation, but there are some extreme scenarios where I don't).

[SossMan]

Verbal action in turn is binding. Once he says "I call", you should be jumping for joy unless he's a total A-hole and took that long to act with AA.

[blendedsuit]

<font color="blue">I've had similiar thoughts during a tournament. You get yourself all-in preflop with the best hand, but unfortunately the game doesnt stop now, there stil are 5 cards left to come. I believe people in the past often gave insurance in these types of situations to ensure that they would not end up a loser. You would make a bet with someone, and lay maybe 4:1 odds or even 7:2 that your kings will get cracked. So you bet $200 on the side, and either you will profit $600 and knocked out of the tourney(minus your buy-in), or in great chip position to make it well into the money.

By hedging these short term odds, you can emerge ahead everytime. In order to get maximium +EV, I think you should bet 1/4 of the minimuim amount of prize money you expect to win if you double up. So if you think you will earn atleast $2,000, you need to find someone willing to make that bet for $400 laying you 4:1. I don't find this concept discussed often. If we knew the long run was in our lifetimes then we wouldn't need to make these bets in order to profit everytime. Although, by constantly insuring these situations, I thinhk players would get on tilt less due to bad beats. </font>

[lolita16]

I hadn't really thought through a reraise to a pot size bet. That certainly makes sense. I have one problem with this play. My initial read was that he did not have AA. If I make a pot size raise, he likely pretty quickly calls and does not agonize over the decision as he did putting all of his chips in. When the flop then comes queen high, can I get away from this hand if he makes a big bet at the pot? Would your thought be to make a pot size bet on the flop and give him the chance to come back over me and push all in? Would AQ play the flop the same way? As a still fairly new player, I would rather make someone make a questionable preflop play with the worst hand, than a perfect flop play after flopping a set. My read came from his lengthy agonizing over calling my all in bet. I believed JJ would be a fairly easy fold for him, as would any big ace. I believed he would have quickly pushed in with AA. Therefore without the big raise that I made my read would likely not have been good enough to be able to get away from the hand on the flop.

Prior to this hand I had shown two previous hands since moving to this table, both were AA.

Thanks for all ideas

Regards-