XX vs a 2+2er

[Trix]

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) Hero just sat down and is most likely unknown to 2+2er.

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with XX. CO posts a blind of $3.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 folds, CO (poster) calls, Button <font color="purple">(2+2er)</font> calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (10.33 SB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls, <font color="CC3333">2+2er raises</font> <font color="blue"> At this point hero puts 2+2er on 66 or KQs</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, CO folds, <font color="CC3333">2+2er caps</font> <font color="blue">66 or KcQc now. Not sure if 2+2er would coldcall KQs preflop, so maybe 80/20.</font> , BB calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (13.66 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero...

What is 2+2ers play with either hand if hero bets or checks ?

Rest of the hand later.

[bisonbison]

It gets confusing since your ability to put him on certain hands eliminates some of Hero's hands. I take it you're holding the A/images/graemlins/club.gif?

If Hero checks...
and 2+2 has 66: bet. If hero has AK or a higher set, he would likely bet for fear of it getting checked through. If hero has AA, KK or A-face, 2+2er is way ahead and wants to get more money in.
and 2+2 has KQs: guh. I'm not sure. If he has clubs, I would take the free card.

if Hero bets...
66: call.
KQs: call.

If hero bets, I just don't think 2+2er is ahead often enough to raise, and will want the callers around if possible to pay off if either draw hits.

[nothumb]

Well, if you put him on 66 or K /images/graemlins/club.gifQ /images/graemlins/club.gif, that means you don't have 66 (unlikely given the PFR) or A /images/graemlins/club.gifK /images/graemlins/club.gif (possible). So I put you on a pair between aces and tens. Most likely jacks.

I think the turn is an auto-bet/raise for either hand. But it really depends. The raise with 66 ain't close; the KQ play is a bit. So if you have an overpair, bet, hope for a raise and hope it knocks some people out. If you have a set I'm tempted to check-raise the field, since it seems likely he will bet. (If it was CDC, I'd bet 100% of the time, knowing how he loves to cap for a freebie /images/graemlins/grin.gif).

Good questions. How'd I do?

NT

EDIT: ATs or AQs are also possible here, I forgot.

[Trix]

[ QUOTE ]
It gets confusing since your ability to put him on certain hands eliminates some of Hero's hands. I take it you're holding the Ac?


[/ QUOTE ]

Well, just try and see it from his perspective, holding either KcQc or 66. He doesn´t know that I have put him on those hands or anything about my play. I´m the average party player to him. I posted in BB, so I´ve only been around for 5 hands or so.

[Trix]

I can have AcKc or AcQc if he has 66...

So you(2+2er) bet or raise in both spots ?

[nothumb]

Wait, you're saying he could play either KQs or 66 this way, but you did this in an academic sense without taking into account your own hand? Like, "Boy, if I didn't have AQ of clubs I'd be worried about KQs here!" That's interesting. I kind of assumed otherwise.

Yeah, I would bet or raise in both spots, because the pot is huge, I don't know you, and I have outs to a full house or a flush, and I am loose-aggressive. I don't know what he'll do though, he's probably tighter than I am.

NT

[Trix]

[ QUOTE ]
Wait, you're saying he could play either KQs or 66 this way, but you did this in an academic sense without taking into account your own hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Since he doesn´t know my hand. yes.

I´m trying to figure out if I should have bet or checked.

[nothumb]

Results?

[kem]

[ QUOTE ]
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero...

What is 2+2ers play with either hand if hero bets or checks ?

Rest of the hand later.

[/ QUOTE ]

If 2+2 has 66:
Hero Bets, 2+2'er calls.. Good chance the 2+2 guy is behind. The only real hands 66 could be ahead of (that hero might have) are AA, KK, or KQs. Without knowing anything about how Trix plays, I suppose there is some small chance he has AJs, but not too likely.
Hero Checks, 2+2'er should bet.. he's probably ahead, but watch out for the check-raise (maybe Trix has QQ?)

If 2+2'er has KcQc:
Hero checks, 2+2 bets.. don't think that one is close.
Hero bets, 2+2'er raises. I like the raise because there's a lower chance you're facing a set of Q's (versus case where 2+2'er has 66), and you still have 9 outs to hit the flush and 2 outs to hit a set of Q's. Seems like a stronger drawing hand, since the 66 hand needs to hit the 1 out for the quad, or other outs for the fullhouse, but those other outs could be tainted if the Hero is holding a set of J's, Q's or T's. That's why I favor the raise here more than if the 2+2'er had 66..

My guess is Hero had JJ or TT, 2+2 had KcQc and hits the flush.

[MarkD]

I'm more likely to raise 66 on the turn than I am KcQc. If I hold 66 I am not convinced by the flop action that random party player has me beat.

With KcQc I have a weaker hand that has plenty of outs to nut hands without many redraws against me. I would probably call your bet to get an overlay from the other players in the hand.

[elindauer]

I would expect 2+2er to bet either hand if checked to. 2+2er may just call with KQs if hero bets.

[kem]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm more likely to raise 66 on the turn than I am KcQc. If I hold 66 I am not convinced by the flop action that random party player has me beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're holding 66, what hand do you put Hero on that you have beat? (Even assuming that he's a random party'er).. The only ones I can think of are AA and KK. QQ has a higher set, so do JJ and TT. What hands would a partier raise pre-flop, then cap that flop with?

[MarkD]

What hands would a partier raise pre-flop, then cap that flop with?

AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, AKs, AQs, KQs, AJos, and possibly KJos or KQo.

So if I hold 66:
AA (6)
KK (6)
QQ (1)
JJ (1)
TT (1)
AKs (4)
KQs (3)
AJos (12)
etc.

It's obvious from a Bayseian point of view that 66 is ahead of most of Hero's hands as most of hero's hands include AA/KK as a range. Also, after I 3-bet the flop hero may have decided to slow down with JJ/TT to get a check raise in on the turn (unlikely but possible.)

Also, if hero 3-bets me here when I hold 66 I call him down bemoaning my luck all the while knowing that if this hand played out in this manor 100 times I would win it a large percentage of those times vs. a random party player and would make a lot of money with 66 here.

With KQs my hand can only get stronger and my opponents hand is unlikely to improve, hence why I like seeing the river a little cheaper. I am getting a fair amount of implied odds on the river when I improve. Although if I thought that the other two players would cold call my raise on the turn then I would raise the turn with KQs as well as 66.

I guess I just don't fear monsters yet with 66 here. I am aware of the possibility but you will often see exactly AA with hero's flop and turn action (assuming he bets).

[MarkD]

I would expect 2+2er to bet either hand if checked to.

I think this is pretty clear.

[Trix]

I checkraised my TT and all called.

River: 8. I bet , all called. UTG: Qs3s, BB: Qd9d for the winner.

Given the response so far, I guess I should have bet-3bet turn.

[kem]

[ QUOTE ]
I checkraised my TT and all called.

River: 8. I bet , all called. UTG: Qs3s, BB: Qd9d for the winner.

Given the response so far, I guess I should have bet-3bet turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

What did the button have?

[Trix]

66

[ZootMurph]

When hero three bets the flop, I put hero on a big pair... typical Party player (which you are to 2+2er in your post) will not 3 bet a draw and usually won't 3 bet two overcards, so I have to believe a big pair, or possibly AJ, giving you a set, overpair, or TPTK. With that initial read...

With KQ/images/graemlins/club.gif, call a bet and bet if checked to. With 66, bet if checked to, raise if bet into, and call a 3 bet or check/raise, adding AK/images/graemlins/club.gif to the list of possible hands if reraised.

River play would depend on card.
If holding______ river is________action
-KQ/images/graemlins/club.gif_______ Ace______________bet, bet, bet.
-KQ/images/graemlins/club.gif________any non pair /images/graemlins/club.gif___ bet, raise, call reraise
-KQ/images/graemlins/club.gif________any pairing /images/graemlins/club.gif____bet or call
-KQ/images/graemlins/club.gif________Queen_____________bet if checked to, raise, call 3 bet.
-KQ/images/graemlins/club.gif________anything else______________check or call
-66______________quads or full house______cap
-66______________anything else____________call a bet, bet if checked to.

Reasoning:
-Ace gives me the nuts. Bet with it.
-With 2nd nut flush, 2+2er should have best hand, but sometimes betting occurs with Axs like this... throw a bet against a check, or a single raise because your hand is good. Call a reraise.
-With the possibility of hero flopping a set, you can't fold a flush, but with a pair on board with the read we have, and with the pot being big enough, a call is fine, and a bet is expected with a flush, with a crying call on a check/raise.
-Queen gives trips, which is a good hand with a good kicker. Bet if checked to, raise if bet into... call any reraises.
-9 gives second nut straight... Bet if checked to, call if bet into.
-Anything else still gives me top pair/strong kicker. Can't let it go, so will call a bet or check through. Mainly calling to see what hero was playing to give myself a better read, but also pot is too big to fold.

-With 66, quads or full house is a strong hand... you may lose to larger full house, but there is a better chance of AA, KK and AJ here than QQ, JJ or TT, so capping is best.
-With a set of 6s, and the read I have, we are either way ahead (AA, KK, AJ), or way behind (AK, QQ, JJ, TT). Call a bet or check it through since it could go either way.

[MarkD]

And how do you play 66 and KQs in your opponents shoes on the turn?

This is an aside but I think even if you bet and he raised you still lose this pot. I'm sure this isn't why you were asking though.

[dakine]

To: Bisonbison: I dont understand your answer. How the hell would you know what the other players hole cards are. Unless you're Superman with Xray Vision...You Don't Know!This is called Poker, Gambling, and taking risks. Gimme a break.

[bisonbison]

To: Bisonbison: I dont understand your answer. How the hell would you know what the other players hole cards are. Unless you're Superman with Xray Vision...You Don't Know!This is called Poker, Gambling, and taking risks. Gimme a break.

I don't understand. Trix was putting him very strongly on two hands, but you're wanting to pick a fight with me? Okay.

I couldn't see a good reason why Trix was putting him on KQs and 66 to the exclusion of some suited A/images/graemlins/club.gif hands, which the 2+2er could cap for value with position. I felt that maybe he couldn't put his opponent on A/images/graemlins/club.gif because he himself held the A/images/graemlins/club.gif. That's why I asked.

Turns out I was wrong.

[dakine]

Not trying to pick on you. Everything comes after the fact. The river, the final hand. I shouldv'e, wouldv'e, couldv'e. "I'd Rather Be Lucky, Than Good". Ask Chris Moneymaker.

[nothumb]

Very gracious of you to let him down easy after he actually responded to your totally nonsensical post.

What is this, mess with the Pooh-bahs week?

NT

[Joe Tall]

You Don't Know!This is called Poker, Gambling, and taking risks. Gimme a break.

It clear you have no clue about poker what so ever. You have, however, found the right place.

Welcome to the forum,
Joe Tall

[bisonbison]

What is this, mess with the Pooh-bahs week?

I don't think so. I've been in a couple of tussles, but I get the feeling I bring that on myself.

[nothumb]

Well, you don't mince words, that's for sure.

NT