This hand coincides nicely with SSHE's draw section, with 1 exception

[Gomez22]

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Gomez22 is Button with 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, Gomez22 calls, SB folds, <font color="CC3333">BB raises</font>, MP2 calls, CO calls, Gomez22 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, CO folds, Gomez22 calls, BB calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Gomez22 calls, BB folds.

River: (7.75 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Gomez22 raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Gomez22 caps</font>, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 15.75 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 15.75 BB, between MP2 and Gomez22.</font>

The reason I stated that this hand conicides nicely with 1 exception is my turn play.

At the turn, I figured to have 12 outs for the sure winner (the 3 threes and the 9 clubs) plus the 3 aces and 2 twos, which I thought would be good as an overcard(s) and trips outs.... hence, I had 17 outs. I merely called to try and keep BB behind me in , but he folded.... In this case(I have an example hand for later), this is a situation where I wonder about raising the turn. Also, I wonder about the play of a hand like this in a HU situation??? Raise the turn in HU play?

Thoughts on the hand in general?

[Sent]

I dont think there were enough people to really consider raising the turn for value.

-Sent

[Gomez22]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont think there were enough people to really consider raising the turn for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thing is, I'm 1.7-1 to make any of the hands I listed... Even if I raise the turn, I'm STILL getting 3.3-1 BEFORE he either raises/calls or folds there....

Solely relating to pot odds, I think I can cap the turn here...... the question is: Is it practical???

[nepenthe]

No, it doesn't coincide nicely with Ed's book. Not the way you played it. You're on the BUTTON with a pair and the nut flush draw. You must raise the flop. By raising, one of two scenarios can occur with respect to the BB:

1. He calls/reraises, thus building the pot which is fine as you can then cap.
2. He folds, which is fine too and you might, if you want, take a stress-free card on the turn.

The only thing you accomplished by just calling the flop is...neither of the above. You have neither built the pot or knocked out hands that can potentially outdraw you.

Having not built the pot on the flop, it's wrong to consider raising an unimproved turn. What does it accomplish? I surmise your pot equity at that point isn't great enough to make raising correct against two opponents either for value or as a semibluff. This is Party 0.5/1. Noone with a better hand at this point will fold and the only hands you fold are the ones you have beaten badly anyhow.

Raise the flop, not the turn.

[nepenthe]

One point: I skimmed over the straight draw on the turn, so it is not unimproved after all. Still, you won't fold better hands by raising the turn and chances are you still must make your hand on the river. Call and see what the river card brings.

[Fnord]

A pair + over + nut flush draw. Unless you're against a set you have at least 45% pot equity. Raise/cap the flop!

[Nottom]

Why would you not raise the flop?

On the turn, you want to call. If there was a better and a caller you could consider a raise, but with the potential caller behind you you don't want to scare him off.

If you were heads up you wouldn't have enough outs to make this a value raise if you know you will get called by MP3.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
Thing is, I'm 1.7-1 to make any of the hands I listed... Even if I raise the turn, I'm STILL getting 3.3-1 BEFORE he either raises/calls or folds there....

Solely relating to pot odds, I think I can cap the turn here...... the question is: Is it practical???

[/ QUOTE ]

I know you've been away for awhile but that doesn't excuse this kind of gibberishspeak.

Repeat after me ... "The value of a BET or RAISE is not affected by how much money is in the pot"

Pot odds are for calling, when you bet while behind you must get more money into the pot for each bet you add than the odds of making you hand. So if you know all you outs are good you need at least 2 callers in order to make a bet/raise profitable.

For a bet or raise to be profitable heads-up in this spot there must be a reasonable chance that either your pair of 2s is the best hand or that he will fold a better hand to your raise.

[nothumb]

If this coincides with Ed's book, I definitely need to reread it.

"This concept is very important. Many players encourage their opponents to remain in the hand no matter the circumstances while they are still drawing. They figure that doing so maximizes their payoff if they make their hand (They do not want to "lose any customers"). They are correct that if they make the nut flush they would prefer many opponents. But they forget they will often miss their flush, but improve to one or two pair. With such a hand you will win far more often with fewer opponents." (p 159).

BTW I'm not trying to be a condescending dick by posting this; it's easy to start referencing sections of a book and missing others. Not sure what part of the book you were thinking of here, but to me this seems like the most applicable part.

With only 3 players left in the pot I would raise/cap the flop gladly. In this case not doing so probably got you some extra action on the river, but I think it's a better play to attack early with this hand. I've been playing draws very aggressively (and as a semi-bluff this works better at limits bigger than .5/1, which I haven't played in a while) and have definitely noticed a difference.

NT

[Peter Harris]

i agree that raising the flop is a must. the turn is a fine call, and if the BB had called the flop raises, they may hang around when you call the turn.

Nice pot.

Pete Harris

[Gally327]

This hand was played under a well known school of thought about Draw hands. However, that school of thought was not present in Ed's book. Ed specifically supports the agressive play of a hand like this on the flop. By betting the flop you are doing what Ed refers to as "buying outs". You might induce the fold of the big bling who has middle pair, ace kicker, and no flush draw. The hands that have you dominated if you spike your Ace wont be around to take the pot. Isolate the agressor on the flop and keep your outs alive. The bettor could have been on the flush draw too. That is probably how you got paid off on the river.
On the other hand. Lets not even discuss sound play, poker is just all luck anyway. /images/graemlins/blush.gif
Ryan

[Gomez22]

Like I said, NL has taken over my mind, and that's part of the reason that I played this hand the way I did. I guess I DID take the context of Ed's book out of line in a way. Thanks for setting me straight.

Another reason that I decided to play somewheres in the neighborhood of 5K-10K hands before I move up.....

Amazing what some time off from a game will do to your mind.