On The Offensive When Faced With A Cold Deck

[Desdia72]

fellow 2+2ers, how to you handle cold decks/bad run of the cards in a SNG? do you just sit back and muck your hands to the blinds or do you resort to pushing on the offensive with more marginal hands in order to get lucky? do suited connectors start looking like the Power I during first and goal at the 5 yard line? it got me to thinking how one handles a cold deck when i saw a guy not only call a raise preflop, but a big reraise over that with 7 8o and he flopped trip 8s. he then caught an 8 on the river for quads. everybody at the table was stunned at the showndown when we saw the 7 8o. sure, the guy got lucky, but if he was getting the kind of cards i was getting, maybe he thought he would take a shot just to see what would happen.

[mcj0014]

What? Now, Desdia, I'm an admitted amateur here, but this sounds totally contrary to first principles.

[PITTM]

playing like that is a very bad idea. how many boards look good for 78o?


rj

[SixgunSam]

I'm glad you made this post because this is something I wanted advice on as well. Typically, I try to win the first couple of hands that I enter to establish myself at the table and later on I can loosen up and get more respect for my bets and raises. I find it much more difficult to make my mediocre hands pay off when I havent shown a big hand. Cold cards are even worse at an aggressive table where your stack is below average because you havent found a hand to call or make a raise. I went through a SnG the other day where over 58 hands, the best cards I saw were A9off and 66. I had never had a run of cards so bad.

Before long, I realised that the blinds had gotten to the point where my stack dictated that I push if I entered a pot. I figured I could keep waiting for something close to premium because by law of averages I will get something at some point. In the end, I had to push with T9 because the blinds were going to eat me up. How do I play this? Should I have tried to buy the pot with a garbage hand earlier? At what point do you stop looking for that first good hand and just fire away with garbage? I'm looking forward to responses on this topic.

[PITTM]

i guess you *could* wait for everyone to fold to you on the button and try to steal more often if the cards are that cold. i would advise picking a better hand then 78o though. i usually just play the same regardless of if im getting cards or not. just try to be patient and make some moves when youre getting the cards

rj

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
What? Now, Desdia, I'm an admitted amateur here, but this sounds totally contrary to first principles.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, it was a $5 + $.50 SNG. people say you gotta take chances, i've seen worse. still, i got me to thinking how the experienced players handle this. i always see the better players showing big hands they pushed or how well the did in a SNG but i hardly ever see them posts how they handle cold decks. anybody can look good when the deck hits you with A A, K K, Q Q, A K and so forth and they all hold up. what about when you get K /images/graemlins/heart.gif3 /images/graemlins/club.gif, J /images/graemlins/heart.gif2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif,
Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif? and you keep getting those kinds of hands? when i started that thread about "I'm Not Saying Online Poker Is Rigged But...", a cold deck was partly my motivation. you find you stack getting eaten down with raises with A K that hit a ragged flop and three bet at it, or you limp with a hand like A /images/graemlins/heart.gif10 /images/graemlins/heart.gif in an unraised pot and the flop hit /images/graemlins/spade.gif /images/graemlins/diamond.gif /images/graemlins/club.gif with no 10 or Ace, or get eaten down to the bone by the blinds holding crap.

[Desdia72]

push with on the bubble with such and such, but what about through the meat of the tourney when Iceman keeps touching your hole cards. it's hard to be aggressive and confident with your play when you're the shortstack with 1000 in the BB (200) holding 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif3 /images/graemlins/club.gif with a bigstack raising to to 1000 with virtual any hand.

[byronkincaid]

but I am never, ever going to click on a Desdia72 thread again. TROLL.

[RPatterson]

No one has said anything about the bubble dumbass. You are beyond hope.

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
but I am never, ever going to click on a Desdia72 thread again. TROLL.

[/ QUOTE ]

already one click too many.

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
No one has said anything about the bubble dumbass. You are beyond hope.

[/ QUOTE ]

constructive to add, you're wasting your time by just responding. this thread was started to discuss with experienced players on how they handle a cold deck during the course of a SNG, and here this guy goes calling me a dumbass. other posters earlier in this thread obviously thought it was a valid question to raise so if you wanna join the bandwagon by hurling unnecessary insults, maybe you're the one beyond hope.

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm glad you made this post because this is something I wanted advice on as well. Typically, I try to win the first couple of hands that I enter to establish myself at the table and later on I can loosen up and get more respect for my bets and raises. I find it much more difficult to make my mediocre hands pay off when I havent shown a big hand. Cold cards are even worse at an aggressive table where your stack is below average because you havent found a hand to call or make a raise. I went through a SnG the other day where over 58 hands, the best cards I saw were A9off and 66. I had never had a run of cards so bad.

Before long, I realised that the blinds had gotten to the point where my stack dictated that I push if I entered a pot. I figured I could keep waiting for something close to premium because by law of averages I will get something at some point. In the end, I had to push with T9 because the blinds were going to eat me up. How do I play this? Should I have tried to buy the pot with a garbage hand earlier? At what point do you stop looking for that first good hand and just fire away with garbage? I'm looking forward to responses on this topic.

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly, so i was curious what bigger limit players had to say about this. the 7 8o example that the guy played in my SNG was an extreme but it paid off. i can't see Jason Strasser, Frozen, or ZeeJustin doing something this mad at $200 + $15.

[kenewbie]

How do you know when your "bad run" of cards will end?

If you somehow where able to know that for the next 200 deals you will get squat, then you have to play bad cards. Ofcourse its impossible to know this so you have to play each hand the way it is supposed to be played.

I think your question should rather be how small do you allow your stack to get before you push with anything resembling a hand. Wether your stack got small from bad cards or suckouts or just bad play on your part doesnt matter.

k

[Phill S]

ive been trying to word my post to this in my head all morning.

frankly, i cant be bothered. i could write a whole collection of ifs and but and whens and wheres, but kenewbie put it perfectly.

[ QUOTE ]
you have to play each hand the way it is supposed to be played.


[/ QUOTE ]

not more a perfect line could be written. look for opportunities and play it like it warrants to be played.

ie, in your example, no, you dont take the chance with 78o, UNLESS you can pick up the blinds with a raise. one hand, two entirely different scenarios.

Phill

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
ive been trying to word my post to this in my head all morning.

frankly, i cant be bothered. i could write a whole collection of ifs and but and whens and wheres, but kenewbie put it perfectly.

[ QUOTE ]
you have to play each hand the way it is supposed to be played.


[/ QUOTE ]

not more a perfect line could be written. look for opportunities and play it like it warrants to be played.

ie, in your example, no, you dont take the chance with 78o, UNLESS you can pick up the blinds with a raise. one hand, two entirely different scenarios.

Phill

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly, the guy with 7 8o called a 90 raise preflop with the blinds at 15/30 and then another guy reraised to 240 and he called that too. he was'nt even the first to enter the pot with a raise.

[Phill S]

however the obvious point to make is that with 15/30 blinds no matter how short you are you can last a fair while longer.

i think less strategic thinking needs to be based on the 5+0.5 you keep meeting on stars.

and frankly im not sure why you used it as an example. i think if memory serves you brought it it with a 'if he was getting cold cards like i do maybe he thought...'

if your playing for less than 20 minutes and havent hit a hand, only worry when its an the sharp end of the game, not in these early stages.

Phill

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
however the obvious point to make is that with 15/30 blinds no matter how short you are you can last a fair while longer.

i think less strategic thinking needs to be based on the 5+0.5 you keep meeting on stars.

and frankly im not sure why you used it as an example. i think if memory serves you brought it it with a 'if he was getting cold cards like i do maybe he thought...'

if your playing for less than 20 minutes and havent hit a hand, only worry when its an the sharp end of the game, not in these early stages.

Phill

[/ QUOTE ]

you're focusing too much on that one hand. early stage hands are just as important as late stage hands, unless you happen to luck up on a Godzilla and triple up or something. players with less experience need guidance on how to handle the lean stetches of a SNG from successful players who have been there and done that. the very issue of a cold deck in my SNG also came about when i went out later in the SNG on the shortstack with the best hand i had gotten all tourney long, pocket 7s. since i'm not as experienced as the bigger limit players in these forums, questions always go through my mind of chips i could have saved early in the tourny when limping with Ace suited hands or suited connectors trying to see a flop in an unraised pot.

[Desdia72]

iive had problems with maintaining my big stack early (2500 to 3000 in chips) on in a few SNGs after i doubled up on a solid hand like Q Q or an Ace /images/graemlins/club.gifK /images/graemlins/club.gif nut flush draw. i'll get hit with a cold deck of marginal cards, then i might get a hand like A K again coming in for a raise only to have to muck the hand on a ragged flop with 2 or 3 other betters. add in a couple of limping hands like KQo or suited, J10o or suited, and hands in the BB--- none of which blossom--- and before you know it, my stack has wilted down to 2000 and the blinds are now 100/200. it leads lesser experienced players to believe maybe their doing something wrong, like not pushing more with questionable hands while they have the chip lead or maybe having stuck with a hand like A K that would've caught that Ace on the river had they stayed in a pot with multiple players.

[Cleveland Guy]

BE PATIENT.

I'm not sure exactly what you are complaining about - but you seem to forget how good truly "premium hands" are. Either your spending too much time waiting for the perfect hand, or have no confidence in your game.

Are you stealing blinds? are you reading others at your table? or are you the fish that everyone can read, and therefore will get every raise called, and then they can sense your weakness?

Anyone can win when you get AA, KK or AKs all the time. It's how you manage yourself between those hands that makes the difference.

[aces_full]

If the cards are not coming your way, there's not much you can do about it. This used to be a big leak in my game when I first started getting serious about poker. I read a few books and went to play some $2/$4 at the casino. After hours on end of no playable hands while I watched my foolish opponents drag pot after pot with crummy cards I started to get impatient. I would start playing in such a way that I was trying to make action happen, but the truth is, you can't force it or you will end up losing.

This is even more true in tournaments. Tournaments are very short term in nature, and the standard deviation of hands is very great over the short term-simply, you must get lucky to win a tournament. But you have to know when you need to get lucky-tournaments are all about timing. You have to avoid risky situations, but also not be averse to risking all your chips, even with a bad hand. My feeling is that the less you need chips, the more risk averse you should be. On the other extreme, if your stack dwindles down to 10BB or less, you must be honest with yourself,brutally honest. Without getting lucky, YOU HAVE NO CHANCE IN HELL!!! NONE,NADA NO WAY. If you wait too much longer for the rockets or the cowboys you will either be blinded out waiting for them, or by the time you get them, it will be too late-you will either be called by a big stack with any two garbage cards, and they will often draw out on you, or if you double up, your stack is still so small that it really didn't help you at all. When you are down to 10XBB this is the time to start getting impatient-not beforehand. When you reach this point, you want to push wwith any hand that you would play anyway, and even some more marginal ones. With 10BB your stack is still big enough that you have some fold equity. Your chance is just too great that you will simply pick up the blinds not to push. And if you get called, so what? You are either going to win or lose. If you win, you are back in the game, if you are out, you can find something better to do with your time. But it doesn't matter, if you are short stacked, you are probably going to be taken down by the blinds pretty soon anyway, and I think it's better to strike first and go down in flames than to simply fade away.

It is a big mistake to get impatient too early on. If you don't really need chips, don't risk chips on anything but good hands. You wnat to save your chips for when the big hands do come. When the blinds start to go up, you can get some chips by stealing the blinds even if you don't have a hand.

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
BE PATIENT.

I'm not sure exactly what you are complaining about - but you seem to forget how good truly "premium hands" are. Either your spending too much time waiting for the perfect hand, or have no confidence in your game.

Are you stealing blinds? are you reading others at your table? or are you the fish that everyone can read, and therefore will get every raise called, and then they can sense your weakness?

Anyone can win when you get AA, KK or AKs all the time. It's how you manage yourself between those hands that makes the difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

with COMPLAINING from?

[Desdia72]

in a recent SNG where i just went out in 5th, i was virtually in all-in mode as the shortstack (hovered around 900-1000) everytime i sniffed what could be a playable hand with the blinds at 75/150 and 100/200. all the other players at the table had at least 2000 in chips and were constantly limping, basically exchanging chips between one another. i was able to last about 6 or 7 gorounds going all-in and staying afloat with the blinds. i even went all-in with 6 3o and got no callers. when i finally went out, i had A 7 and the chipleader had A 8 and i'm LMFAO /images/graemlins/grin.gif! had this been earlier in the SNG, like 10/20, we would have split the pot.

[2planka]

Sorry to state the obvious, but here goes:

Cold cards happen. Use them to your advantage. During those runs of 83o, Q4, etc. take notes on your competition. Study their patterns. Try to read their hands and find a spot to put them to the decision for all their chips (cliche, I know).

At some point when your stack approaches the 10xBB level you'll have to select a range of hands with which to make your stand, based on position, relative stacks, etc. Not sure 78o would be a hand I'd choose unless I'm facing a blind out.

Until then, remain active in the game.

I've been running cold for the past month or so (only about 30 SNGs for me), but I have very good notes to show for it.

Basically concentrate on playing your best and make the most of your time at the table, even if the cards aren't hitting you. FWIW.

[Cleveland Guy]

Maybe cause I missed the actual question. This looked more like a rant to me than a question about playing style.

[BrettK]

[ QUOTE ]
in a recent SNG where i just went out in 5th, i was virtually in all-in mode as the shortstack (hovered around 900-1000) everytime i sniffed what could be a playable hand with the blinds at 75/150 and 100/200. all the other players at the table had at least 2000 in chips and were constantly limping, basically exchanging chips between one another. i was able to last about 6 or 7 gorounds going all-in and staying afloat with the blinds. i even went all-in with 6 3o and got no callers. when i finally went out, i had A 7 and the chipleader had A 8 and i'm LMFAO /images/graemlins/grin.gif! had this been earlier in the SNG, like 10/20, we would have split the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

See, Cleveland? He's not complaining.
If it weren't for my obsession with clearing the board of unread posts, I'd have stopped reading Desdia72's stuff weeks ago.

Brett

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry to state the obvious, but here goes:

Cold cards happen. Use them to your advantage. During those runs of 83o, Q4, etc. take notes on your competition. Study their patterns. Try to read their hands and find a spot to put them to the decision for all their chips (cliche, I know).

At some point when your stack approaches the 10xBB level you'll have to select a range of hands with which to make your stand, based on position, relative stacks, etc. Not sure 78o would be a hand I'd choose unless I'm facing a blind out.

Until then, remain active in the game.

I've been running cold for the past month or so (only about 30 SNGs for me), but I have very good notes to show for it.

Basically concentrate on playing your best and make the most of your time at the table, even if the cards aren't hitting you. FWIW.

[/ QUOTE ]

i did what i could in the previous SNG, stealing the blinds where i could as the shortstack, things just did'nt work out on the final hand. part of my strategy for going all-in was TABLE OBSERVATION. i had noticed that the bigger stacks were content to limp with anything and exchange chips between each other so i felt like, "If you're gonna keep limping, then i'm gonna MAKE you PAY to play your hand and catch something". right now in my last 26 SNGs, i've moneyed in 13 of them (50%) but the last 11 have been brutal, cashing in 4...3 being 3rds, so i've lost money over this stretch. gotta keep plugging away.

[Milky]

This is great advice. Studying your opponents betting habits, thinking times, cards (when they showdown) will gain you a lot in the later rounds. Usually when starting early in a tournament I kinda hope I get garbage so I can sit back and take notes.

This also gives you that rock image you need for later in the game (especially on the bubble when most players tighten up eve more).

Take the following with a grain of salt, but when my stack is down to 10xBB or less I will push with any ace, any face card with a fairly decent kicker (usually above 5), any suited face card, suited connectors down to 76, or any pair. You'll be gambling but at least you have SOMETHING, and most of the time you won't have to go to the flop with these hands... either you'll steal enough blinds to get out of the danger zone (and thus can tighten up a little), or get called and take your chances.

Also, if you double up early in a tournament, don't leak those chips back to the table. Hang on to them unless you get premium hands like JJ-AA, AKs etc. Even then, play cautiously. You don't want to give away your chip lead!!

[me454555]

Best piece of advice I ever got on this forum regarding tourneys was this "It takes a better hand to call with than to raise" We've all heard this saying before but it applies even more so when the deck is running cold.

This usally happens in the middle stages of SnGs, when theres 4,5, or 6 people left and the blinds are a decent amount. My stack isn't huge and I haven't played a hand in a while b/c my cards have stunk. If its folded to me in LP, I'll open raise with almost anything. T9o Q6s it really doesn't matter as long as I think theres a reasonable chance to steal the blinds. I actually prefer these situation to raising with the semi premium hands like A9o b/c it leaves me with a much easier decision to make post flop when I miss.

Remember that just because you don't have a hand doesn't mean they do. It also doesn't mean that they know you don't have a hand either.