Too aggressive on the turn w/ top two pair?

[DougThor]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, MP3 checks, CO folds.

<font color="green"> I know I missed a bet here. I was hoping for a check raise. </font>

Turn: (5.25 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 folds, BB calls, <font color="CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, BB calls, <font color="CC3333">UTG caps</font>, Hero calls, BB calls.

<font color="green"> I was check raised here. Was I too aggressive by 3 betting? </font>

River: (17.25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls, BB folds.

Final Pot: 19.25 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 19.25 BB, between Hero and UTG.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by UTG (19.25 BB).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
UTG shows Js Kh (straight, ace high).
Hero shows As Qd (two pair, aces and queens).
Outcome: UTG wins 19.25 BB. </font>

[bisonbison]

Not betting the flop is criminal. It's hard to know about the turn without A) a bet on the flop and/or B) a read on UTG. You'll get better responses if you don't include results.

[Brian]

Hi DougThor,

I'd 3-bet the Turn as well. Because you checked the Flop, your opponents don't know that you have a monster. Once UTG caps, I'm just calling the River.

-Brian

[DougThor]

I know the missed flop bet was horrible but thanks for the response. Bet to protect the hand, right?

[bisonbison]

Bet to protect the hand, right?

Bet because they will call with anything and you have a huge hand on this board. This is a moneymaking flop bet. Bread and butter.

[MAxx]

it doesnt really make much sense to me to try and be the raiser preflop, and then try and go for a check raise on the flop. people tend to check to the raiser, and there aren't a whole lot of folks left to act behind you. with this many peeps seein the flop, it is a bad idea to let it get checked through and hand out cards for free that could lead to the result that you got. similarly, someone could have gotten a free set on the turn that could have had a similar effect. we do not know for sure... your oponent may have called one bet on the flop to take one more card off and gotten you anyway. but i think the message here is to bet the flop.

[DougThor]

Absolutely agree that a check raise was the wrong choice. I had the best hand on the flop and was obviously making money on the bet. I think the guy who won would have called anyway with the 4 outer. So I'm not sure what additional information I would have gleamed by the flop bet, his call, then his raise on the turn after my bet.

[bisonbison]

So I'm not sure what additional information I would have gleamed by the flop bet, his call, then his raise on the turn after my bet.

Well, if the action went that way it would make it more likely that the ten helped his hand.

But if you bet the flop and he raised and you three-bet and then he raised your turn bet, the ten would probably be less likely to have improved his hand.

[DougThor]

yup, I see. Good point. Thanks.

[MAxx]

i would have 3 bet turn too... and not liked the cap... call the cap and hope for improvement. one more crying call on the river. although you are almost certain that you are losing this pot on river, I think you have to call one more in this large of a pot. i hate making calls like this, but it is much worse to fold the best hand for one more BB.

[gojacketz]

You raised preflop, two big cards on the board, you absolutely have to bet the flop here. Personally, I would never go for a checkraise here. Don't get fancy, there is no reason. Do you have any reason to think that MP3 or CO will bet behind you here? Neither showed any aggression before the flop. Do they habitually bet when they are checked to?

Turn looks good. UTG likes his hand. He may have hit a set of tens on the turn, or perhaps he was slowplaying a set of 7s on the flop?

River, eh, I probably call it here, UTG is throwing in bets all over the place.

Doh, just looked at results. Bad check on the flop, but UTG most likely calls the bet and hits his gutshot anyway getting at least 11.5 to 1 on the call.

Gojacketz

[TheHip41]

OMG bet the flop. If I'm playing, and someone raises preflop, and the flop is all big cards, and you check, you are tellig me you have all of the flop, or none of it. You are basically telling everyone you have AA, QQ, or AQ. They all expect you to bet, so bet. Let them chase their Ax and hope they hit.

Now on to your hand, you see why not betting was horrible. It cost you the whole hand. You can't be sure the villian in this hand would have called a bet with just a gutshot. And maybe if you bet, the CO might raise u with a weak ace, and chase the straight draw out for you.

Regardless, bet the flop, OMG

Derek

[Nemesis]

If you were UTG or in the blinds i think that a flop check-raise attempt would be much better. With the size of the pot people with 4 outs or greater have odds to call profitably. If you hit those gutshot draws with a checkraise they either fold correctly or call incorectly, either way you get to protect your big hand. Unfortunately where you're at the MOST you could knock out with a check raise is one person. Not worth the risk for the reward. Betting out and letting them call profitably is better than giving them infinite odds to draw against you. 3-bet on the turn and calling the cap and river are fine.