Top pair top draw (beginner question)

[icecreamwillie]

My local card room just started a $100 buy in NL game. Blinds are 2(button), 2, 3. Anout 60% of pots are being raised $10 to $20 pre-flop. I don't know much about NL, but neither do my opponents.

Pre-flop raise from middle position of $20. This player is steaming from some perceived bad beats, but has generally been showing decent cards when he raises. He has about $200. I'm in small blind with Ad7d (about $300). My table image is very tight. I call (bad call?) and big blind (solid player) calls. 3 handed pre-flop.

Flop is A,8,4 two diamonds. A good flop, but if better has Ace with good kicker then I still just have a draw. If my Ace is good a bet will just move him off the hand. He will surely bet if checked to. I check. BB checks, MP bets 20, I call, BB calls.

Turn is another 4. I check, BB checks, MP bets $190 all in. If he had AA for nut full house, he might make this overbet, remember neither us knows much about NL, but I think it more likely he would make a more moderate bet. Maybe a 10% chance. If he has Ace better kicker, I have 3 outs to a full house win, 2 outs to a full house tie and 9 outs to a flush. I think this is his most likely hand, maybe 60%. He could also be overbetting Kings, Queens or maybe Jacks.

I didn't give consideration to the possibility BB had a 4. I should have, but I just didn't think of it.

I made a crying call after much thought. I'd like to say I sensed weakness in his bet, but that's a rationalization. BB folded, he claims he had a suited K of diamonds, but knew I had nut flush draw after so much thought. It's possible.

I won the hand, MP was overbetting Queens, but I can't help thinking I made a bad call on the turn. If MP had the most likely hand (Ace better kicker) I didn't have the pot odds to make the call. If BB had re-raised to put me all in I would have been drawing even slimmer.

Please comment.

[SirArthur]

Playing a drawing hand like Ax suited from early position is not a good move, in NL it should go quickly into the muck.
You want to be play a hand like that in late position with a few limpers in front, otherwise you're faced with very difficult decisions like you were.

His push on the turn seems like an attempt to scare you off when the board pairs 4's. If he had aces full, he wouldn't push here, he'd want to extract as much money from you as possible.
If he was really steaming, and an aggressive maniac (who didn't know NL) I would have probably called in this situation to.

[Leo Bello]

Since you asking as a begginer, take care when trapped between players. when someone bets, you have to decide on a call and there is still people to play, you have to think if you would call the raise that can come later. That is basically why u wouldn´t want to play hands like Ax out of position (this applies also to KQ, KJ, AQ, and so on)

[adanthar]

Your outs count is all wrong on this hand, BTW. If he has A better kicker (assuming not A8), you have 4 outs to a split from the full house and possibly 4-8 more split outs if he has AQ/AJ.

The flush is not 9 outs, either. Because of the BB, you are not at all sure if the 8d helps you.

Either way, however, your 'crying call' was a call of 190 into a pot of 240 with TP weak kicker and a player left behind you on a paired board. I'm no great NL player but this is suicidal long term.

Oh, also, muck preflop.

[icecreamwillie]

Thanks for the input. I guess I knew I made a mistake and needed confirmation

[SpiderMnkE]

These blinds are pretty big for the buyin... and if the standard pf raise is 20% of your stack... you better be ready to slug it out when you enter a pot.

This is a weird game... the relatively big blinds would suggest playing a bit more hands than normal... but the massive pf raising would suggest super tightness... calling 20 bux with A7 out of position seems very bad to me.

[schwza]

i like the check-call on the flop. at first i was going to advocate a c/r push or a bet with the hope of 3-betting all-in, but i changed my mind. i think either of those plays would be +EV but i think you get a higher +EV by trying to hit the nut flush (or a 7) for cheap, because i'm guessing both that your opponents won't get away from a hand like AJ if you c/r push and that they will pay you off if you hit the flush.

the turn should be a fold. it's hard to know what this guy's got at this point, but you need a better hand to look him up, as you could be drawing dead already. and oh yes, you should have folded pre-flop. with big, frequent raises before the flop, you have to be patient.

[PokerFink]

First of all, everyone should probably go read this month cardplayer magazine's article about combination hands. Link (http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/archives/showarticle.php?a_id=14156). You're hand, with the weak aces and flush draw is the classic combination hand.

Pushing with combination hands on the flop is a negative ev move that many novices make. They think they can take down the pot, and if somone calls, they have outs. Win-win, right? Nope. Read the article, it explains it all.

Anyways, I agree with what everyone is saying, don't play this hand out of position to begin with. As for the call on the turn, I would say that was an excellent read. But in most situations, you don't want to make that call. If you are confident enough in you're abilities to make reads like that and call with a pretty weak hand, then go for it. But without that read, DON'T make that call.