Preflop quandry

[sublime]

Unknown UTG raises. BAD/Horrible (mixes it up between uberlag and call station) fish makes it 3-bets from MP and you hold JJ on the button.

Action?

[lil']

The three bettor will rasie with crap? I'm playing my jacks and I'm capping it.

[Haupt_234]

I'll try and think out loud.

I am mixed between calling and capping. Calling will allow you to see what the UTG unknown raiser will do. If he reraises, you are likely beat (QQ,KK,AA).

On the other hand, capping might make him fold his AQ or KQs.

I would lean towards capping.

Haupt_234

[sublime]

The three bettor will rasie with crap?

More like any hand he deemed worthy for an original raise (88-AA) and (AK-AJ)

[joker122]

I'd cold call 3 and see if UTG caps it.

[BottlesOf]

That's it?? Now you seem to be limiting his likely range of hands quite a bit...

[Danenania]

I'd rather knock UTG out and be heads-up against the fish with JJ than "find out what UTG has". Capping gets the money in when you are likely best and has a chance to isolate a poor player. Cap it all the way.

[sublime]

That's it?? Now you seem to be limiting his likely range of hands quite a bit...

He is *somewhat* normal preflop(with raising anyway, he plays almost EVERY hand), but from what I have seen he will raise any hand *he*(notice a good percentage of those hands should be dumped with an UTG raise) deems worthy no matter who raised before him. Its post flop where this guy turns into one of the worst SS players I have seen in a while.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd rather knock UTG out and be heads-up against the fish with JJ than "find out what UTG has".

[/ QUOTE ]

What makes you think UTG will fold here? There are few hands that should be correctly folded here.

[Eihli]

You aren't getting him out and you don't know if you are likely the best. See if he caps...

[balkii]

well you can't fold.

capping is a LOT more fun than calling 3-cold.

so...i think this is a pretty easy one

[TheHip41]

I cap, and see what the flop brings.

[Danenania]

[ QUOTE ]

What makes you think UTG will fold here? There are few hands that should be correctly folded here.

[/ QUOTE ]

For two more bets? I can think of a bunch. KJs, KQo, KQs, ATs, AJo, AJs, 88-TT, and that's assuming his UTG raising standards are reasonable in the first place. Not capping to "see if UTG caps" is weak tight play imo.

[Mike Gallo]

Mike,

With that position I would cap action and then see what the flop brings.

Chances are I will call the flop bet also.

[Trix]

I think I cap.

Coldcalling to see what UTG does is not really an option as capping might fold AK behind or a hand with overcards from UTG.

[Nick709]

I think there is a 1% (if even that) that UTG will fold to cap. If he has a big hand you gain no info by capping. UTG would have to be a decent player AND he would also have been trying to sneak a UTG raise in with a weak hand for him to fold here. Given that I prefer the opportunity to gain info about UTG's hand since you have no read on him.

Does this make any sense?

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd cold call 3 and see if UTG caps it.

[/ QUOTE ]

my first reaction was to say "cap it and it's not close." but how much value does this have? capping gets you control of the hand, but calling gets you some information.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]


Coldcalling to see what UTG does is not really an option as capping might fold AK behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

You think AK is folding for two more bets? Gee, I didn't know marijuana was legal in Denmark /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

[sthief09]

UTG won't fold anything that he open-raised with. I don't think I've ever seen anyone raise from EP then fold for 2 more bets. stuff like that just doesn't happen.

and not raising to see if UTG will cap isn't weak-tight. it has nothing to do with being weak-tight. weak-tight play comes from being scared of something. he's not scared of anything. he's searching for information. there's a tradeoff here. information for control of the hand. but as far as I'm concerned, if UTG doesn't cap it, then you've gained control of the hand since you know he probably doesn't have AA or KK, or possibly QQ. then you can basically narrow his hand down to AK or maybe AQ or TT.

[Trix]

Yes, I think SB could fold AK, maybe BB too. But like I said in the sentence you quoted half of:
Coldcalling to see what UTG does is not really an option as capping might fold AK behind or a hand with overcards from UTG.

Meaning AQ,KQ......

[chesspain]

It's possible that UTG might fold AQo/KQo for two more bets...but saying he might fold AK for two more bets is just unbelievable.

You know I am just funning with you? /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[StellarWind]

I cap it. I don't expect this to cause UTG to fold *now*, but it might allow me to take him out after the flop when his overcards miss.

Those who call to see if UTG will cap have a point. Until Sublime provides details to the contrary however, I have to assume that UTG has been watching the show too. Capping a near-maniac and a coldcaller may not show as good a hand as you think. Your information may be difficult to evaluate.

[Trix]

I never said UTG would fold AK..

[Cerril]

I guess it depends on what you know of UTG. If he's aware of the bad player's tendencies then he's likely to play worse hands just to get heads up or 3-way with one or more bad players. In that case I'd say figure you're the favorite, then expect to bet/raise anything not too scary on the flop just to see if you can now get the bad player all to yourself (unless you get your J and an otherwise non-scary flop, of course).

If, on the other hand, UTG plays like you'd expect UTG to play, or plays especially tight/well to keep from banging his head into the wall when he's raised from a call and 3-bet from a raise (i.e. only plays hands he'd be willing to 3-bet himself), then toss your jacks and be prepared to have thrown away the worst hand for free.

The only case where I'd four-bet it hoping for a preflop fold is if you have some reason to believe that UTG plays more marginal (i.e. 2-bet but rarely 3-bet and definitely not 4-bet) hands than great ones for a raise preflop.

The last case is if UTG just sat down at the table (either came in for a BB midway or has just finished his first round) and/or hasn't gotten wind of the full effect of the UTG player yet. Being pushed around like that can just blindside him into a shock-fold, especially online when that 'fold' button is right there (any decent player is used to pressing it).

[Danenania]

I still think it's weak-tight just to call for that reason. I see the point of just calling and yes you get some information, but look at the two possible scenarios in regard to UTG. This is more a postflop debate than a preflop one. I'm assuming in both cases that the LAG has a random, perhaps slightly above average holding that you are probably way ahead of.

1.) You are way ahead of UTG's 88-TT, KJs, AJo, AJs or slightly ahead of UTG's KQo, KQs, AQo, AQs, AKo, AKs (or tied with JJ).

This is your ideal situation. If you cap it, you either gain 2 extra small bets while your equity is high or fold UTG and isolate the LAG. When UTG doesn't fold, you still pound away through the rest of the hand unless you see an A or K or are shown a whole lot of aggression. You will often get called down by worse hands and will win a large pot. A lot of the time you will win the pot early or get heads up with the LAG.

However, if you only call to find out what UTG will do, UTG will often just call with these hands and you won't learn much. You will play the rest of the hand close to the same, but will have missed the two SB preflop and have less control. Not a huge loss, but the real problem comes the few times that UTG will cap it with one of these hands you dominate or are slightly ahead of. This is bad because you might wrongly evaluate UTG's strength and fold the best hand at some point in a huge pot. Say he caps with TT or 99 or AQs (which is a real possibility if UTG is aggressive or thinks you are making an isolation move on the LAG or is on tilt or on drugs or has read his cards wrong) and the flop comes 4,K,7. UTG would then bet out on the flop and LAG would often raise with any two cards. Fearing a Q, K, AA or better, you'd be faced with a pretty tough call with the possibility of a 3-bet behind you and might be forced to fold the best hand in a large pot which would be disastrous EV-wise. This problem is erased by a preflop cap as the betting on the flop is now likely to go: UTG checks, LAG bets, Hero raises, UTG folds, and now you are heads up with the LAG with a pretty strong hand, a wonderful situation.

2.) You are way behind UTG's AA-QQ.

If you cap preflop, that is now 1 SB partially wasted (as opposed to the 2 SB partially gained when you're ahead). The rest of the hand might play a little less smoothly for you in that you'll probably have to lose some bets when you are behind and there are no overcards to indicate it. There is, however, a chance that you will win without the best hand by folding UTG's QQ or KK when an overcard hits the flop. Or you might hang around to spike a J out of pure ignorance when you are way behind. Either would be a huge win because of the size of the pot.

Now let's say you don't cap preflop, and sure enough UTG goes ahead and caps it with one of these strong hands. You will now be correctly worried that you are way behind and may make some good laydowns where you would have lost some chips before. Say UTG has QQ, KK, or AA in the example I used in scenario 1 instead of 88-TT or AQs. Your fold in that situation is now a good one and saves you a few bets. However, there will also be many situations where the information gained from UTG's cap won't allow you to make a good laydown and you'll payoff anyway. On most ragged boards, for example, it would be very hard to fold your overpair (unless UTG and the LAG got into an all-out raising war) due to pot odds and the chance that UTG might have capped preflop with a hand you dominate.

There is also the possibility that UTG will not cap with one of these strong hands for whatever reason and in that case you will have false information (think UTG's hand is weaker than it really is) and end up paying off about the same as if you had capped it.

In sum, it seems that while capping preflop allows you to make some fairly small mistakes throughout the hand (betting, raising, calling when behind) as well as offering some small advantages (extra money in the pot when ahead, more control of the betting), just calling preflop offers both small advantages (folding when behind) and the potential for HUGE mistakes (folding when ahead in a big pot).

For these reasons, I don't see how this decision is even a close one. Small mistakes and small advantages vs. Huge mistakes and small advantages. Capping seems superior by far. But as always, feel free to correct any and all faulty logic.

[Fnord]

How often are you winning here without a set?

Hmmm....

Result
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=427038
pokenum -h jc js - ah ks - ac qd
Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Js Jc 609959 44.50 756296 55.17 4499 0.33 0.446
Ks Ah 462048 33.71 889586 64.90 19120 1.39 0.344
Ac Qd 279627 20.40 1072007 78.21 19120 1.39 0.210

Result
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=427039
pokenum -h jc js - ah ks - qc qd
Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Js Jc 233709 17.05 1132296 82.60 4749 0.35 0.172
Ks Ah 496834 36.25 869171 63.41 4749 0.35 0.364
Qc Qd 635462 46.36 730543 53.29 4749 0.35 0.465

Result
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=427040
pokenum -h jc js - ah ks - tc td
Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Js Jc 619628 45.20 746908 54.49 4218 0.31 0.453
Ks Ah 496940 36.25 869596 63.44 4218 0.31 0.364
Tc Td 249968 18.24 1116568 81.46 4218 0.31 0.183

[sublime]

Those who call to see if UTG will cap have a point. Until Sublime provides details to the contrary however, I have to assume that UTG has been watching the show too. Capping a near-maniac and a coldcaller may not show as good a hand as you think. Your information may be difficult to evaluate.

Sublime- Cold calls

It just didnt *feel* right capping with JJ (although after reading this thread and checking pokerstove I discover that equity wise it is probably the correct thing to do) Not only that, but if the board is scary I may have the option to peel off a free card.

UTG was a total unknown and by cold calling I also added the risk of one of the blinds coming along for the ride(not as scary as it sounds, but still a risk). Now I think I get more info if UTG does NOT cap. As StellarWind pointed out a cap could mean a lot less due to the presence of the fish(this guy wasnt crazy preflop, but would play almost every hand and was horrid postflop) but if UTG does *not* cap the info may be a little more reliable.

In hindsight, I think I should have capped. Position and the increased possibilty that the flop would get checked to me is reason enough alone. Nevermind that I have an equity edge preflop and should maximize it.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

Heh, I'd cap 99 in this spot. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[sublime]

Heh, I'd cap 99 in this spot.

I am not suprised /images/graemlins/smile.gif

EDIT:

Dude, isnt it like 5:00 am where you are? Go the fcuk to bed! /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Joe Tall]

Online and given your situation, I'd cap.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[MarkD]

Most of this thread has been covered but I wanted to say a couple of things.

Many posters have stated UTG will never fold here. I take this to mean that they think it is incorect to fold any hand worth raising with UTG when it comes back for two more. I submit that this is wrong.

Against a legitimate cold-cap (and from a TAG player like most 2+2'ers this will be a legitimate cap) I will fold AJo, AQo, ATs, AJs, KQo, KQs. I would raise all of these hands UTG and fold them when it came back for two more. I am unsure if it is correct to fold the suited cards but I think it is probably correct. That legitimate cap is AA, KK, QQ, AKs almost everytime. It will rarely be JJ (except in this case above).

Also, against a legitimate 3-bet from a solid player (or even a mediocre player with tight pre-flop raising standards) I think it is probably correct to fold JJ. In this specific hand I would cap for sure fof the reasons already outlined.