2 Hands for Review

[Haupt_234]

On the verge of another (whats new) 100+ BB downswing. Critque on these hands would be appreciated..

Hand 1:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (12.33 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 folds, MP3 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero caps</font>, Button calls, BB calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (14.66 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Hero calls, Button calls, BB calls.

River: (18.66 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Hero calls, Button calls, BB folds.

Final Pot: 21.66 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 21.66 BB, between MP3, Hero and Button.</font>


Hand 2:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, BB checks,

Flop: (5 SB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, Hero calls, SB folds.

Turn: (4 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero caps</font>, BB calls.

River: (13 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 19 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 19 BB, between BB and Hero.</font>

I think my river play in hand #2 is horrible BTW.

Haupt_234

[sublime]

Yo-
Are you hoping your 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif will hold up if another spade falls? I wouldnt. And if that is you plan of action, why did you call the river?

Hand 2:
Raise preflop
Raise the flop
Cap the river

[MoreWineII]

Cap the river with a board pair?

[sublime]

Cap the river with a board pair?

Yeah, I guess after the 3 bet its ok to think he has a boat. I still am wondering what hero does not like about his river play however.

[Haupt_234]

On Hand #2, I don't think it is right to raise preflop with J10s. It is a drawing hand and should be played like one. I normally don't raise QJs in EP or MP for these reasons.

As for the river, I didn't like my raise at all. It was unlikely that my opponent had a straight since he bet out the flop. After he 3-bets the turn, allowing me to cap, I knew I was most likely up against 2 pair. A set was unlikely since BB didn't raise preflop, so I figured he would have AK or AQ. I think a call would have been better here.

Haupt_234

[DeeJ]

Hand 1 could well have a set of 6s or 8s out there, action only held back by the flush. I'm probably not capping but calling a cap. Since you capped you don't know whether Button/BB/MP3 think their hands are worthy of a raise. Nobody but nobody folds a 3 bet hand for 1 more bet..... so if you don't have QQ or two good spades I would let someone else tell you they think they're strong. I'm calling down like you the rest.

Hand 2
I would probably do what you did at the river and hate it too. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[MarkL444]

You have to raise the flop in hand 2...

[MoreWineII]

With the way your opponent went buck nuts on the turn in hand 2, I think you have to give him credit for two pair or a set.

Crappy river card. Just crappy. I think you're right about a call being the right play here.

[rjc199]

Hand 1:

Ed Miller 3:16 says, "With a good but vulnerable hand that will often be ruined on the turn and that you cannot easily protect, you should frequently wait to raise on the turn if a non-scare falls". It applies perfectly in hand #1. They all have odds to call if you raise the flop, your hand is indeed vulnerable, and it was indeed probably ruined on the turn. However, the bet by MP2 seems kind of weird. I would raise here and fold everybody else out. If he 3-bets then I would probably fold. If he bets into me on the river I fold also.

Hand 2: Flop: You have a very strong hand in a small pot. Try to build it (which you did by calling and hoping sb would call). On the river I don't think you misplayed it. You just got the 2nd nut flush. I would raise here too. Of course when it is 3-bet I think I might be beaten but in a pot this large and heads up I call of course.

[Monty Cantsin]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 ...I'm calling down like you the rest.


[/ QUOTE ]

You realize the guy betting out on the turn is not the flop battler but someone caught in the flop crossfire who has now come alive. You definitely call this down?

/mc

[KingSix]

[ QUOTE ]
You realize the guy betting out on the turn is not the flop battler but someone caught in the flop crossfire who has now come alive. You definitely call this down?

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't this depend on the read of the MP player? Calling multiple bets cold in the middle of a shootout usually gets my attention, unless it is someone who I know will cling to top pair like the Titanic. In hand #1, if MP turn bettor is a decent player, I may be gone...

King

[chesspain]

Hand 1:

Preflop: After three limpers, I'm only calling with 99.

Flop: I don't understand the flop cap, to which there is no value. No one is folding for that last bet, and you are either already behind or may well fell behind before the hand is over.

Turn/River: MP3 certainly looks like has the flush, although with the singleton redraw (even to a crappy nine), I guess throwing in one is O.K, in case he has a pair with the K or A of spades. I would say that you're toasted on the river, although I don't fault you for the crying call, even though I can't imagine that you're good here even 3% of the time.


Hand 2:

Preflop: Fine

Flop: UGH...with a four-flush and gutshot, you have an easy, easy, easy raise here, especially since you could use a free card on the turn if offered.

Turn: Fine

River: Even though you now have the second nut flush, the fact that BB bets into you after going to war on the turn means there is a very high probability that he has the boat. Indeed, it should be obvious that he doesn't have JT for the str8 (with which he wouldn't have bet the flop), and he wasn't betting the hell out of the turn with a flush draw or a naked ace. And he's not betting into you on the river with an unlikely A6 after the turn got capped and the flush just came in. You lost two more bets than necessary on that river.

Haupt, I have noticed from your posts that you often seem to struggle with the weak-tights, although it looks from these hands that as you attempt to become more aggressive you're now struggling with how to pick appropriate spots for aggression.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
Cap the river with a board pair?

Yeah, I guess after the 3 bet its ok to think he has a boat. I still am wondering what hero does not like about his river play however.

[/ QUOTE ]

Capping the river here is terrible. Does his opponent have to actually run you over with his boat for you to acknowledge that he has one. Opponent didn't bet out onto that flop with the JT gutshot draw, and he didn't go to war on the turn with a flush draw or naked ace. Hero should just have called the initial river bet.

[Haupt_234]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1:

Preflop: After three limpers, I'm only calling with 99.


[/ QUOTE ]

Really...

I usually raise with 99 from anywhere, even in the BB after several limpers.

Haupt_234

[Haupt_234]

[ QUOTE ]
Haupt, I have noticed from your posts that you often seem to struggle with the weak-tights, although it looks from these hands that as you attempt to become more aggressive you're now struggling with how to pick appropriate spots for aggression.


[/ QUOTE ]

Somethings not right chesspain. I'm up 100 BBs one day and down 120 the next... /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Haupt_234

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1:

Preflop: After three limpers, I'm only calling with 99.


[/ QUOTE ]

Really...

I usually raise with 99 from anywhere, even in the BB after several limpers.

Haupt_234

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't imagine ever raising 99 in the BB after 3-4 limpers. I am curious to hear your logic behind this plan, since if you don't hit your set you will be out of position for the rest of the hand, with reverse implied odds against the rest of the field, and likely up against at least a few overcards.

[Haupt_234]

[ QUOTE ]
I am curious to hear your logic behind this plan

[/ QUOTE ]

I would tell you if I had some.. all I can remember is that I read somewhere (maybe one of Ed Miller's quiz questions?) that you should raise 1010 out of the BB after several limpers. So I figured it would work with 99 as well, since this is the lowest pocket pair I raise with PF.

Haupt_234

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am curious to hear your logic behind this plan

[/ QUOTE ]

I would tell you if I had some.. all I can remember is that I read somewhere (maybe one of Ed Miller's quiz questions?) that you should raise 1010 out of the BB after several limpers. So I figured it would work with 99 as well, since this is the lowest pocket pair I raise with PF.

Haupt_234

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you need a better plan than this one /images/graemlins/smirk.gif. Seriously, although there is a gradiant among pocket pairs with respect to declining strength, I draw the cutoff at 99 vs. TT (and I don't always raise with TT in the BB). In fact, I think that 99 is significantly worse than TT, since, IMO, for many players the lowest, suited kicker they will play with a Bdwy card out of position is a T. Consequently, when you hold TT, I think it makes it less likely that you are up against multiple overcards than if you held 99. Furthermore, holding 99 means that there is one more overcard that you need to worry about. Finally, for what it's worth, when you hold TT (in comparison to 99), there is much less of a chance for someone to hit a Broadway str8.

[Trix]

Hand one is a very good example of waiting to raise, when raising likely wont fold anyone.

2) You have 12 very likely clean outs and position, what more can you ask for ? raise the flop.
Calling the river might be better.