Poker Ego

[SpiderMnkE]

Can someone explain to me why it is that poker players can't control their poker ego.

Say Joe Shmo poker kid goes to a home game. He knows he is a favorite at the game... but he runs into some suckouts. Joe Shmo now proceeds to tell his entire poker history... how much money he has made.. how good he is. Why the suckout play was bad.

This action causes him to feel slightly better because he has gained some sort of respect in his head.

Why is it that this need exists. Why can't Joe Shmo just go to the game.. and try to act like the biggest fish.. never talk strategy... never let on about advanced concepts and just go home the "lucky" guy most weeks.

Even the great SpiderMnkE has succumb the powers of the ego... however... after enlightening myself I came to realize that it is much better to just never mention that you know what poker is.

Who else has had or has this problem. I'd like to hear some stories where you just couldn't control the urge to force people to recognize your poker skill.

I'd also like to know why this is from a psychological standpoint.. and how these noobs that still do that can fix it.

[Dan Mezick]

Take a close look at Barry Greenstein. Specifically his demonstrated ego.

It's the null set.

I'm pretty sure Greenstein is emblematic of the kind of player we are going to see profoundly successful in the years to come.

If successful poker teaches humility, Barry Greenstein is very successful at poker.

[toots]

I made a comment somewhere else a while back that it looked to me like Poker was a particularly good magnet for narcissists. I meant that in a psychological sense. Much of the pattern you describe plays a lot like "narcissistic insult" in that the person, who has a very high opinion of their own abilities, feels deeply threatened by any challenge to that opinion (like the fact that they're not winning), and ain't gonna be happy until they have somehow reestablished their credentials.

I see a tremendous amount of this (as well as constantly nattering about "how that looks") in these forums.

I think you've really identified a key point to successful play: What's really more important to you? Being a good player, or being seen as a good player.

A lot of people fall into the trap of placing higher importance on the second.

For the most part, I try to establish my credentials as "I suck at poker." At worst, it's an honest assessment of my abilities, and at best, it keeps people from getting too wary of my play.

Even still, I've found times (usually at B&Ms) when I get to talking about poker to someone, and suddenly feel the need to start spouting off about probabilities, pot odds, and other nonsense. I s'pose it'd be ok if I did a better job of adjusting to how my blather has affected the way others play against me, but it usually just labels me as an "ABC player" and I let people walk all over me.

At this point, I usually say something to the effect of "See, I do suck at this after all. Here's my last chip. I'm never going to play this game again," to which I usually get the response of a chuckle and "See you next week."

[astroglide]

if i were obnoxiously rich i would have no issue with playing for charity either. while what he is doing is commendable, it isn't any more amazing than any other charitable contribution which represents a similar percentage of a person's net worth.

[andyfox]

Poker's a fantasy world. In real life, we have to go to the market with the list our wife makes out for us, suck up to the boss, pump our own gasoline, look for the remote . . . Lots of life involves no ego, or swallowing one's ego.

But at the cardroom, we can let it all go. Raising is fun. Raising and winning is funner. Raising and winning and letting everybody know how brilliant you were to do it is the funnest.

When I have a small stack at the cardroom I slump down, lest somebody I know see me. When I have tons of chips, I'm popping up and down, hoping somebody I once said "excuse me" to six and half years ago comes over to chat.

[2planka]

There's a book called "Influence: the Psychology of Persuasion" (I forget the author) that delves into issues such as this. The author discusses the principle of Consistency - basically that we have a deep need to be consistent in our opinions, even to a fault. Probably oversimplifying, but my confidence as a player can be (at times) contingent on reinforcement from other players (it's pretty cool when the railbirds bet on me to place first in my home tourneys). When we suffer bad beats, losing to "inferior players" is inconsistent with our own image of "solid player" that we've constructed.

In fact, we should forego this need for internal consistency and borrow some psychology from one of the greatest thinkers of the last century:

"Relax, kid. We do this every day." - Earl Weaver.

Long story short, berating poor players or steaming over bad beats are attempts at coping with the reality of a situation and our own self perception. The two are at odds, and our desire to be consistent produces a response that we can control.

My take on it, anyway. Poker is a lot about the choices we make at the table. Keeping the ego in check is a good choice. It makes the game more fun.

[FeliciaLee]

It takes some practice, but can be done. It takes a lot of restraint and self discipline. The great thing about being a narcissist, is that we are usually intelligent enough to realize what a mistake "poker lessons" are. What a mistake tilting and steaming is. So the fact that we think we are so great also helps us overcome compounding mistakes. After all, we don't want our tablemates seeing us screw up, do we? We want them to see how superior we are, lol.

I lie a LOT at the table, if it gives me any edge whatsoever. I would rather just sit there and be silent, take everything in while giving nothing away. But sometimes it just doesn't work, I need to manipulate the table. So I lie.

Like the line I get from older guys (and not so old guys, too, sometimes), "I like playing against women because they never bluff, they just bet their hands, and you can fold securely."

My reply is usually, "Yeah, you're right. I'm way too scared to bluff! I have no poker face at all, I'd get caught, I'm sure!"

Hmmm, okay buddy, let's see if you practice what you preach. If he does, well, I'm going to raise him every time he's in a pot with me.

If you find yourself giving too many lessons at the table, yelling at the fish, etc, then find a way out of it. Mute the chat if you're playing online. Wear headphones, earplugs, anything that will keep you from talking. Force yourself to overcome this thing. It's not really that hard. Once you've been beat by your hundredth one-outer, you really have nothing to say to the fish anymore.

Felicia /images/graemlins/smile.gif
www.felicialee.net (http://www.felicialee.net)

[TripleH68]

I am a very competitive person by nature. I am a poor loser by nature. I absolutely hate it when someone takes my stack and gloats. But I never want to show my ass at the table. I understand the risk involved in gambling. Winning or losing in a session of poker is not to be internalized. One night is not going to change my life. So win or lose, when I get up from the table I wish everyone a good night and a see you next time...with a warm smile and sometimes a shrug.

A famous celebrity(can't remember who) once said...
"I don't gamble. Winning $100 isn't a very big thrill to me, but losing $100 really pisses me off."

[TripleH68]

Alright I have a confession to make. So once I was being razzed by this guy. The whole room knows he is a jackass, but he makes a flush against me, runs me out of quite a few chips and is carrying on about how he is playing with a bunch of monkeys. He then refers to how he had this monkey(me) beat and I payed him off like an ATM blah blah blah...

Finally I lost it. I said "may I ask you a question?" He says "sure." I say "Do you by chance have...a really small...tiny little penis?" He sits flabbergasted for a moment. The table falls silent. I say "because you are obviously trying to overcompensate for something that is missing in your life." The table was about to lose it. He has never bothered me again! But on the way home that night I felt embarrassed for losing my cool. Thinking about it still makes me laugh though! LOL.

[Blarg]

I've gotten steaming mad before at the tables, but the most that I've ever done about is say dammit and let my face strobe purple and red, maybe roll my eyes until they get whiplashed, and that's about the end of it. And that's extremely rare.

Mostly I try to keep in mind that if anyone at all on the table beats me, I want it most to be the guy who keeps sucking out on me and giving me bad beats. I want him to be happy and maybe even think he's a pretty sharp cookie, because that will keep him coming back to the casino, and he's the guy I have the greatest chance of getting money back from if I lose it.

It's very easy to think and feel the opposite, and more natural -- that it doesn't feel so bad if the guy who beat you had a good hand in the first place and is a good player who just got his fair share of luck or played well or both. That's to be expected sometimes, after all, and doesn't fly ludicrously in the face of probability. Those beats don't hurt nearly as much.

But it's money won to the guy who's just as skilled as you are, or maybe better, that it's going to be hell to get the money back from once its lost. Once it's lost to good players, it's almost like it's out of the poker economy forever. Money won by sucker-outers and bad-beat specialists is more like a loan I hope to one day get back, with interest.

So I try to keep myself happy thinking that while keeping them happy by not yelling at them or making them feel like once they win, they're obliged to flee the table unless they want to go through the world of crap some people put them through.

[Lawrence Ng]

Hey Spider,

When I started playing poker back when I was 20, I had a very huge competitive side to me. I participated in a lot of sports and I even did some competing in ballroom dancing, and believe me there is nothing more competitive in this world than ballroom dancing.

I was use to winning in everything I did. I did wonderful in school, got top marks, and for the most part got what I wanted if I wanted it bad enough.

So along comes poker and I realize after a little while that I believe I am good enough to beat the games in my area. After all, it was like any other sport where the good players beat the bad ones. True enough as this statement is, what I failed to realize was that while I could beat the bad players, I could not beat myself. I could not beat the fact that I had a very big ego and I could not accept long shot bad beats as part of the game.

It took me a long time to let the ego go when I sat down on the poker table. I was so blinded by the fact that I had to win everytime that it was ruining my game.

But with a lot of things I've learned, the hard way that is, letting go of the ego has proven given me a lot more +EV and focus.

I'm no pyschology expert by any means, but my guess is that the ego is driven by our need to remain competitve and survive. When our ego gets hurt, there is some need or fulfillment to mend it by "educating" others. It's just so hard sometimes to confine our sense of loss. It's just our competitive nature to prove to someone that we are better than them.

[Lawrence Ng]

It takes some practice, but can be done. It takes a lot of restraint and self discipline. The great thing about being a narcissist, is that we are usually intelligent enough to realize what a mistake "poker lessons" are. What a mistake tilting and steaming is. So the fact that we think we are so great also helps us overcome compounding mistakes. After all, we don't want our tablemates seeing us screw up, do we? We want them to see how superior we are, lol.

Perhaps some shrinks could englighten on this subject a little further. Why do we constantly keep doing something we realize is wrong? I'm not just inquiring into detrimental poker habits in particular, but to everything else pretty much.

[SpiderMnkE]

A lot of these posts are talking about taking a beat and getting mad and saying all kinds of stuff.

This is sort of.. but not exactly what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the need to be the "poker" guy. You might not even take a beat before it starts. Table coaching sort of fits in to what I'm saying. But just going out of your way to let the people you are playing know that you "know" about poker.

Using poker terminology is a lot of it. "Well I had pot odds to chase my draw" "I was actually a 65% favorite." "I checkraised there to limit the field." Things like this are especially bad when we are playing against people we know have never heard of these things. The only point is to make ourselves feel superior.

Why do we care if our friends know we are the best player. It is certainly not helpful. Yet almost no one can avoid doing this.

[Cpt Spaulding]

Dude....Welcome to America...Just now noticing we have an ego problem here? I do agree with you though...It is lame. However it isn't limited to the poker table it happens everywhere with just about everything.