Back to basics: QQ pre-flop

[JSD]

Party $100NL ($1/$2 blinds)

Unknown player on my right opens in MP for $7. I make it $20 with QQ. Folded back to him and he pushes for $70 total. Pretty easy fold, right?

[dtbog]

Yep!

[SpiderMnkE]

I agree with poster dtbog... the answer to this situation... after much thought and experience at the table... given your read and description of the opponents playing style... along with the relative stack size consideration... is a most definate yep.

[JrJordan]

Can't imagine him pushing with JJ can you? Possible with QQ (push) or maybe AK (coinflip), most likely though its AA or KK. Easy fold.

[schwza]

if he has AA, you're ~20% to win. you'd be calling 50 to win 143 (with blinds) total, which has a value of .2 * 143 = $28.6, so calling his AA costs you $21.

if he has AK, you're ~55% to win. you'd expect to win .55*143 = $79, so calling his AK wins you $29 (relative to folding).

6 ways to get AA, 6 KK, and 16 AK. assuming he'll never push here without AA/KK/AK, you'll break even if you see AA/KK 29 times for every 21 times you see AK. if he pushes every AA/KK, he only has to push AK (12/16) * (21/29) = 54% of the time he's dealt it to make your call break-even.

i don't think that nearly 1/2 of party 100 players will not push AK in this situation.

i play mostly party 50, and there i wouldn't be too surprised to be shown TT, KQ, A8. i'm sure party 100 is tougher, but i gotta think most people are pushing AK there, and there's some chance you'll be shown a weaker hand.

if the stacks were deeper than the 35xBB they are here, it'd probably be a fold, but i'd call this.

[JSD]

I mucked. I think that against a semi-reasonable opponent, I'm almost always against AA/KK/AK here. I'll find better spots.

Just wanted to make sure I'm thinking correctly for the Party $100 game. I've been spending a lot of time playing in a crazy live game where this would be an insta-call. My opponents in that game frequently come over the top pre-flop with monsters such as TT, AJo and KQs.

FWIW, I think this is probably an insta-call in Party $25, too.

[EvlG]

I was in a very similar situation in a loose 1/2 Live game this weekend. I had about $50 in front of me (after losing the JJ hand I posted previously). EP minraises to $4, I make it $14 to go with my QQ, trying to isolate, and to my surprise SB calls (the wild playing JJ wild) and then BB pushes all-in (he has everyone at the table covered). EP raiser folds quickly, and after some deliberation I call, and then the SB folds. The BB flips up JJ, and my QQ holds up. (EP raiser later said he had pocket 4s).

The BB pusher gave me a bit of a hard time over the call, because he was obviously representing AA or KK. I of course knew that is what he bet was intended to represent, but I called anyways for 2 reasons:

1.) I had already committed about a third of my stack to the pot preflop. Folding here would leave me with barely enough to play one more hand and still make meaningful raises, especially in this game since a great hand requires at least a 7xBB raise preflop to charge the EP limpers (witness the SB cold call of a raise and a reraise - he did this with T8 to me when I had JJ and he hit 2 pair, and he frequently did this multiple times over the course of the session). So folding was a tough option because it would cripple me for the rest of the session, and I was unable to rebuy on that particular night.

2.) I wasn't 100% convinced he had the better pair anyways. Based on very early read, I felt like that player would have reraised less than all-in if he really had the good pair because he would want me to push and then call. His all-in gives me a good opportunity to fold. The only downside to this argument if if he thought I had AK or maybe AQ, in which he wants my lone ace to fold if he holds KK. But the best read I got on his push was that he wanted overcards to fold, and so he probably didn't have the good pair. And this time I was right.

[Leo Bello]

It really depends on your read on the table. Today I called a reraise pre-flop with QQ. The guy who reraised me, had lost 3 hands before a big pot. I felt he was frustrated and waiting for a hand. I decided to call him. I won the hand without improving. The guy had 99 and went all in.

[JohnG]

You wait all night for hands like this, and then you turn it into 72o.

On this depth of money, is the value of QQ in winning or losing small pots preflop, or is it in giving it a chance to win big pots postflop?

[JSD]

JohnG, I'm not sure I understand your response. It sounds like you are advocating coldcalling the PFR with QQ rather than re-raising with it? In which case, you're playing it for set value alone?

[Fnord]

[ QUOTE ]
JohnG, I'm not sure I understand your response. It sounds like you are advocating coldcalling the PFR with QQ rather than re-raising with it? In which case, you're playing it for set value alone?

[/ QUOTE ]

You could call and fold if an Ace flops.

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
JohnG, I'm not sure I understand your response. It sounds like you are advocating coldcalling the PFR with QQ rather than re-raising with it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Re-raise with other hands. Not QQ. Better to do it with A6o.

[ QUOTE ]
In which case, you're playing it for set value alone?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. The main value of the hand on deep money comes from doubling you through with a set, and for this reason we need to give the hand a chance to realise it's main value. If you re-raise preflop, you are unlikely to see the flop and the hand has lost it's main value. It's been reduced to having the same value of any old hand like 72o. But that doesn't mean you only play it for set value.

On depths of money where a bet and raise gets allin on flop, then it can also double you through against hands you bury when you only have an overpair. Say against AJ on a J76 flop, or against JJ on a T64 flop. It also allows you to get away on bad flops where you otherwise would have busted had you gambled preflop.

On depths of money where a bet and raise on flop cannot get you allin, (stacks will have more than 1 bet left if you just call flop), then the play of QQ post flop when just an overpair will be different, and beginners may be better off playing it for set value only.

A preflop re-raise get's no hands that have you buried to fold (KK/AA), and generally allows hands you bury to get away(JJ/TT). Think about what players will do with hands you bury if you re-raise, compared to if you just call. And if they have AA/KK and you re-raise, you likely miss an opportunity to bust them compared to if you just called.

And against those that will put it allin preflop with hands like TT, AJ etc, (and thus make you feel obliged to call them when they move in over the top of your QQ re-raise), waiting until the flop is still more beneficial compared to re-raising preflop. Why put all the money in early against these players when you can put it in later when they are in much worse shape, not to mention those times you can get away without going broke where you otherwise would have had you gambled with them early.

[JohnG]

The above applies to deep money. On shallow money or very deep money, you can re-raise.

The value of QQ is different on shallow money. Here, it's main value comes from being viewed as a made hand preflop. Whereas, when the money is not shallow, it's main value comes from hitting sets and doubling you through.

Shallow money in raised pots= where someone has raised and it is over 10% of relevant stacks for you to call the raise. In this case, you normally re-raise or fold. The re-raise normally all-in. Obviously, there are borderline situations just over 10% where you can make an exception and call rather than re-raise. The key to these exceptions will be related to getting allin and doubling through hands you bury, rather than letting them get away.

When it's 10% or less of relevant stacks to call a raise, this is when calling is generally best.

Very deep money = where it is so deep a further raise of your re-raise still gives you odds to go for the set and double through.

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
On depths of money where a bet and raise gets allin on flop, then it can also double you through against hands you bury when you only have an overpair. Say against AJ on a J76 flop, or against JJ on a T64 flop. It also allows you to get away on bad flops where you otherwise would have busted had you gambled preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correction to above paragraph. The last sentence should read:

"It also allows you to get away on bad flops."

Forget about the rest of the sentence.

[ QUOTE ]
On depths of money where a bet and raise on flop cannot get you allin, (stacks will have more than 1 bet left if you just call flop),

[/ QUOTE ]

With regards this paragraph, 'more than 1 bet' = stacks of 2X or greater the pot size if you just call. 2X pot is the approx borderline.