What to do With KK Here?

[josh1122]

This was a very loose table with 7 or 8 people seeing the flop almost every hand.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, <font color="CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="CC3333">MP1 caps</font>, CO calls, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls $0.16 (All-In).

Flop: (23.32 SB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(6 players, 1 all-in)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">CO raises</font>, Hero folds, BB calls, UTG folds, <font color="CC3333">MP1 3-bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">CO caps</font>, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (17.66 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players, 1 all-in)</font>
BB checks, MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">CO bets</font>, BB calls, MP1 calls.

River: (20.66 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players, 1 all-in)</font>
BB checks, MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">CO bets</font>, BB folds, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 21.66 BB

I think folding on the flop was a bad mistake, am I wrong? Maybe I should have bet out on the flop?

[Bill Smith]

I think you did fine. I can't rationalize betting into 5 players when capped preflop and the Ace flops on board. Play it like you have 2 outs - you're forced to call 13-1 pot odds out of position (10-1 if capped) with a 23-1 draw. You can't even be entirely sure AA isn't out there.

[Songwind]

CO didn't raise PF, so I can't put him on aces, but he did stay in and then raise into that ace-high board, so I'm putting him on AJ, personally.

If I'm counting correctly you're getting 26:2 to chase your Kings when you fold, so I'd fold, too. (requires 45:2 for correct odds).

[flair1239]

I agree with your assesment... you have to bet out, with the pot so large at this point. You might have the best hand on the flop, plus you have a bockdoor flush draw to the nuts, and a backdoor straight draw as well. I think you have to see the turn on this one. and of course by that time you are pretty much locked into the river, because of the size of the pot.

[flair1239]

See this thread:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=462860&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;sb=5&amp;o =&amp;fpart=1&amp;vc=1

[josh1122]

The many backdoor draws were my reason for being so confused as to what to do. I really didn't want to commit myself to the pot though as these maniacs would be in there raising all the way with their Ax.

[flair1239]

I think that on the flop you could assume that any king would put you ahead and any diamond except the Jack would set you up nicely

[purnell]

Good flop play IMHO. In this kind of game, when an ace flops on your KK and the preflop action was heavy it's time to go.

[josh1122]

I wouln't have even thought twice about this laydown if it weren't for these results: CO shows his Jh9h and takes down that nice size pot. Ed Miller's post about sticking it out with your good hands in the big pots in low-limit games rings true here. I guess I was just too angred by the ace flopping than to even look at my backdoor draws so I just quickly discarded the best hand. (I'm thinking most times someone will have an ace in this situation, though) I think I should have stayed with this one, but on the other hand if those backdoor draws aren't there its an easy fold.

[chief444]

I think you played this fine. Would you have check/raised the flop if not for CO raising unexpectedly? I really don't see much point in betting the flop as MP1 will probably raise regardless. With the backdoor outs, K outs, and small chance your hand is good you're almost correct to cold-call the flop and call down however it seems likely that you'll be calling more than 3BB's to see a showdown here. I would have played this the same.

[chief444]

Flair,

Betting out on the flop really does nothing to protect the hand here. Check/raising would do more due to the relative position and majority of opponents trapped in between hero and where he expects the flop bet to come from.

Also, you are advocating seeing the turn based on pot odds relative to outs but then note that hero's pretty much locked into seeing a showdown. If you are thinking of going to showdown then you really need to consider future action, throwing your odds to see the turn right out the window.

One more comment...Ed's post that you referenced I believe (didn't re-read it now) was more relative to folding hands for one bet on the river than folding to a bet and raise on the flop.

[kiemo]

[ QUOTE ]
I wouln't have even thought twice about this laydown if it weren't for these results: CO shows his Jh9h and takes down that nice size pot.

[/ QUOTE ]


What does this have anything to do with how you played your hand?

[josh1122]

I was really thrown about what to do here so seeing him take it with jacks kind of affected my outlook on my play, even though it shouldn't. And it was just a big pot that would have padded my winnings nicely.

[busguy]

Your beating yourself up WAY too much on this one. You played this hand like a VERY good player would. Staying in would have cost you a LOT of money 19 times out of 20 (just making up these numbers to make the point). You just happened to see the 1 time (in 20) that it would have paid off to stay in.

Keep playing like that and you won't be at .5/$1 for very long.

/images/graemlins/wink.gif busguy

[josh1122]

Thanks for the support and consider this thread done so I can stop thinking of this hand. /images/graemlins/wink.gif