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Ben Thornton
07-30-2004, 12:11 PM
Too many times lately I see players who can't seem to find a moderate speed to play at. Any high pocket pair is all-in or anything less is an immediate fold. Gone, it seems, is the ability to play any hand with a certain amount of moderation.

Some would chalk this up to a difference in play style, but I don't believe that is the case. I think that too many players are being caught up in the highlighted and copy-edited world of televised poker. All you see are the big hands, the all-ins and the bluffs. Why? Because watching real poker---the grueling, touchy-feely dance of checks and bets just doesnt make great TV.

In a tournament atmosphere, you just can't afford to continously place your stack on the line. Even if you are getting 4-1 odds everytime you do, that only means that you can double up about 8 times before your odds run out. In order to increase your chances over the long run, you have to learn how to bet, fold, and check to control the tempo of the table.

Why do you think aggressive players seem to hold the reigns at the table? Because they have learned that by betting they can control most situations. Their play tends to be one-sided though, and their successes are often short-lived. Weak-tight players do well for an amount of time, but eventually the blinds become daunting. They have lost too many stolen pots, or worse, gotten outdrawn by a more aggresive player. The problem with both styles is their tendency to rely on the all-in bet. The aggressive player uses the all-in bet to steal those chips from weak-tight players who don't want to jeopardize their chances. While the weak-tight players use the all-in bet when they have caught a seemingly great hand. This either leads to a small, uncontested pot or a "bad" beat on most occassions.

Think of all-in bets from a more fatalistic approach. The board is going to come up the same no matter how you bet it. If the board is going to come up in your opponents favor, even if you have A-A, there is little you can do about it. Thats not quite as likely a scenario than if you had 10-10 or maybe even K-Q. Playing to gain information from your opponents is the difference between losing alot of your tournament chips and gaining alot of your opponents. In most cases, just looking at the flop can change the odds of a hand for both players dramatically. So why would you want to risk your tournament stake without this information? Most of the time you wouldn't.

"Betting when you have the best of it", is the star which poker players use to navigate their ship of chips, but betting it all when you have the best of it is not always the right thing to do. Learn when those times are and when they aren't and you will soon find yourself at deeper tables in tournaments.

mrbaseball
07-30-2004, 12:22 PM
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Even if you are getting 4-1 odds everytime you do, that only means that you can double up about 8 times before your odds run out

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But by that time you should have the desperation pushes nicly covered. Every time I am a 4-1 favorite I WANT all my chips in the middle. Coinflips and flush draws are situations I want my chips in only if it makes everyone else surrender. Staying further away from these smaller edge situations has improved my game considerably. When you have the big pile of chips though it makes it a lot easier to pressure smaller stacks into coinflip situations which is something I try to do at that point.

But I understand your point though and there does seem to be a lot of foolish aggression.

Jason Strasser
07-30-2004, 12:28 PM
Ben,

Nice writing and all, but I think the most important aspect of any poker player is the ability to adjust. Early in a sit and go, you can bet and fold and work all those wonderful reading skills, etc. However, later in the sit and go, say you have T1000 chips and the blinds are 100/200, you would be foolish to tell anyone to do anything but go all-in or fold. If you had T1900 chips, same thing.

The bottom line is, if you want a game where you can have a lot of play, then play deep-stacked NL. I love that game. However, when it comes to this arena, often times you will spend 60% or more of the time in all-in or fold mode...

Because you are adjusting to the blinds. Making speculative plays with KQ, JJ, etc., is a great way to ruin a tournament. Aggression is at a premium, and if you are cold calling a bet, or making cute little minimum raises to get reads and such when you have 10xBB or less of a stack, you are playing horribly.

-Jason

SossMan
07-30-2004, 12:35 PM
I agree here....it boils down to the stacks being shallow. It's really that simple.

Ben Thornton
07-30-2004, 12:55 PM
I agree completely, but my focus is primarily on the first few levels of play (say the first 5 or so) Because this is the most dangerous time for alot of players. I find that after I get past the first hour of an online tourney, I am in for another two hours minimum. The play through these rounds will determine whether or not your play for the rest of the tournament is going to be decided by the size of your stack. (of course it always is to a certain extent)Doing well in the earlier rounds is essential to making final tables consistently .

mrbaseball
07-30-2004, 01:01 PM
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my focus is primarily on the first few levels of play

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I think you have to play extremely tight before the first break and only get in when you have way the best of it.

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Doing well in the earlier rounds is essential to making final tables consistently

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I disagree with this completely. It's nice to get a big stack early on but no way neccessary. The guys that subscribe to this thinking are the guys that come over the top all in with AJo hoping to double up. Half the field is gone by the first break usually. If you can hang around "average stack" you are in fine shape for the later rounds.

davidross
07-30-2004, 01:16 PM
Ben,

THis is why a lot of people want to see pot-limit become the Marquee game. The mediocre players have realised that pushing all-in frequently nullify's the better players edge.

Ben Thornton
07-30-2004, 02:09 PM
I'm a big fan of pot-limit hold em. Building (or not building pots) becomes much more important.

Ben Thornton
07-30-2004, 03:01 PM
Playing A-Jo all-in is the exact opposite of everything I have just talked about. Working to build a stack early and foolishly attempting to get lucky and double up are two different things.
An "average stack" is perfectly fine after the first few rounds. There are alot of players who either get under or over-involved in the first few rounds and end up suffering as a result. (Much more so for the over-involved) Too many good players get stuck in a weak-tight mode of play early on when they should be playing a few marginal hands to try and gain information about their opponents and maybe build their stack a little. (I know I have been guilty of this before) Later they find themselves forced to play a weak-tight game because they are short-stacked and unable to bet to change the tempo of the table

t_perkin
07-30-2004, 07:17 PM
Generally speaking I think in your average online tournament:

in the early stages there are enough magoos around that you should just wait for a big advantage and get your chips in the middle ASAP and double up.

in the later stages the blinds are going up fast enough that (almost) everyone is short stacked so that fancy/interesting play goes out the window. Rarely is there betting after the flop where niether player is pot committed.

just some thoughts

Tim

pzhon
07-31-2004, 06:53 PM
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In a tournament atmosphere, you just can't afford to continously place your stack on the line. Even if you are getting 4-1 odds everytime you do, that only means that you can double up about 8 times before your odds run out.

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Nonsense.

You should dream of being able to double up as a 4:1 favorite. You don't get a chance to do that every tournament. If you somehow double up 7 times, don't you expect to have the next player with an underpair covered?

Thanks for the advice on making the final table consistently. How consistently do you make the final tables of tournaments with 100+ players? I expect that you lose most of the time, just like everyone else. It's poker, not chess.

Some players overbet too much. That is an exploitable weakness. Exploit it by being willing to risk your stack when you have the best of it. Other players aren't willing to get their chips in with the best of it. That's another exploitable weakness. Exploit it by pushing cowards off good hands.