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KingSix

07-30-2004, 04:52 AM

Let preface this by saying that I just picked up SSH today from my special order so if there are concepts that relate to these hands in SSH, just drop me a page number!

Recently I've had some real problems with the flushes or straights hiting the river. I am losing to so many of these hands that I find myself letting up on the river if a flush or straight scare hits even though it is unlikely someone came this far with only that draw.

Example #1-

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, Hero raises, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP3 folds, BB calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

River: (6.25 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.25 BB
Main Pot: 10.25 BB, between Hero and BB. > Pot won by BB (10.25 BB).

Results in white below: 
BB shows 7d Td (flush, ten high).
Hero shows Ad As (one pair, aces).
Outcome: BB wins 10.25 BB. 

I don't see how he gets this far with anything that can beat me, so I don't see how I can fold to the raise. He was the usual 45+ VP$IP party regular. Should I have folded here? Check-called the river? Both of those options seem very weak to me.

Example #2-

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (3 SB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, MP1 folds, Hero raises, BB calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, BB calls.

River: (5.50 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, BB calls.

Final Pot: 7.50 BB
Main Pot: 7.50 BB, between Hero and BB. > Pot won by BB (7.50 BB).

Results in white below: 
Hero shows 4d Kd (straight, seven high).
BB shows 3h Th (flush, king high).
Outcome: BB wins 7.50 BB. 

Battle of the blinds this time, but same issue. Should I automatically go into a shell when the draw hits? Fold? Check-call?

Example #3-

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Hero raises, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, MP3 folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

River: (9.75 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls, UTG+1 folds.

Final Pot: 11.75 BB
Main Pot: 11.75 BB, between MP1 and Hero. > Pot won by MP1 (11.75 BB).

Results in white below: 
MP1 shows Td Kc (straight, ace high).
Hero shows Qh Ah (two pair, aces and queens).
Outcome: MP1 wins 11.75 BB. 

Same situation, but it is the straight draw this time and instead of getting raised, I get bet into.

In the end, am I just over analyzing these? Like I said, I see that I have missed so many bets in the past by instantly "going weak" when a draw hits the river and then MHIG and I just lost out on a bet or two. Do I show a profit by assuming these miracles aren't there and just betting away? or am I losing money by betting out into these or paying them off?

A party post can't be complete without a juicy hand.... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, Hero calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (6 players)
SB bets, BB calls, UTG folds, Hero raises, CO folds, Button folds, SB 3-bets, BB calls, Hero caps, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (9 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB bets, BB calls, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls.

River: (15 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls.

Final Pot: 21 BB
Main Pot: 21 BB, between SB, BB and Hero. > Pot won by Hero (21 BB).

Results in white below: 
SB shows 6d 7s (two pair, sixes and fours).
BB shows 2c Kh (two pair, fours and twos).
Hero shows 2s 2h (full house, twos full of fours).
Outcome: Hero wins 21 BB. 

Hands like these make me wonder if I am being too concerned about these other marginal ones....

Thanks in advance for any replies.

King

Avatar

07-30-2004, 05:00 AM

Kingsix, I've played with you before. Your still seeing too many flops. That'll cost you long-run. PFR% looks good. Anyways...

Hand 1: You played fine. Don't check/call the river or fold it. Bet and call his raise.

Hand 2: Check-call that river. You may be against a bigger king even if the flush doesn't come. Your lucky he wasn't a tough player and raised you.

Hand 3: Played fine. If there wasn't 3 suits on the board, I may have even raised the river once.

Hand 4: Muck that hand pre-flop. Your out of position. Post-flop played fine. LMAO at the two dumbies you were against. I wish every table had a few of those.

KingSix

07-30-2004, 05:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Kingsix, I've played with you before. Your still seeing too many flops

[/ QUOTE ]

God isn't this true at 2/4! 27.40!!

BUT...my sample size is pretty small for 2/4 (3,000 hands) and there are some pretty severe Ax outlyers in my top 20 hands in terms of times dealt. In addition, I had a real bad run (If some of you remember my posts here) from 7/15-7/24 where I cranked out some 35%+ sessions tilting my money away. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

In addition, I tend to be a bit looser than normal. If I'm in a 2/4 game where I see people showing down hands like Q3o and J6o, I will usually at least call with any small pair, without previous callers. In the case of the 22 hand, 6 of the players at the table had VP$IP of over 62%. Unfortunatley for me, their hands must have been really bad on this hand. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I also play in VERY loose B&M games that are typically 7-9 handed to the flop and some old habits die hard.

Strangly enough, I would like to move my PFR up about another 1-2%.

King

skunkworks

07-30-2004, 05:53 AM

Don't be afraid to make what seems like a "weak" play if the situation calls for it. Going for overcalls, inducing bluffs, and other so-called weak plays have their proper place. Make sure you know when to use them and why they are the correct play -- your postflop game will improve vastly when you've nailed down these fundamentals.

Hand 1: Not too much you can do there. Good play.

Hand 2: I don't like the flop checkraise at all. Bet out -- the pot is small and the board is coordinated. Given that you played it this way up to the river, bet and call a raise. No reason to fear a flush, and you'll see two-pair hands here often enough to confidently call a raise.

Hand 3: On the river, going for the overcall seems sensible enough given the flush card on the turn and the gutshot. I think you played it well.

HajiShirazu

07-30-2004, 06:20 AM

Hand 1 is fine.
In hand 2 don't try to talk yourself into not betting the river just because draws hit. These people call with anything.
I just call on the river in hand 3. I think raising is close because that's how a lot of people would play if they had improved to two pair, being scared of the flush. However some scared players would also play a small set/flush/straight the same way and you'll I think you'll see too many of these to make raising profitable.
I think calling in the last hand is fine given your reads on the players. You got to see the flop 6 ways for one bet, and then you made a ton of bets from other players holding hands that really weren't all that strong. There aren't many better games to play 22 in than this one.

Trix

07-30-2004, 07:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Recently I've had some real problems with the flushes or straights hiting the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK.

2) He isn´t going to fold anything you want him to fold to that check-raise.

I would have folded preflop in the 22 hand.

Yeah, these are pretty good examples of draws hitting on the river and thats about it.

If the draws never hit it would get pretty damn hard to make these players put money in the pot, dont you think ?

Avatar

07-30-2004, 07:23 AM

Haj, regarding the last hand, KingSix ended up getting perfect low pair limping odds (5:1 seeing the flop), but do you really think it is safe limping in with 2-2 from EMP, after only 1 EP limper? I believe the game would need to be positively (and I mean positively) loose/passive to try such a thing. If someone raises behind him, that will almost certainly put Kingsix in a -EV situation.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember reading in HEFAP that you want minimum 5:1 odds pre-flop to make the implied odds large enough to justify making a call with a med-low pair. If I am correct, I just don't see our Hero in this position, getting +EV. Of course, I'm being non-results oriented here, as this particular hand did work out for our Hero.

kem

07-30-2004, 09:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2: Check-call that river. You may be against a bigger king even if the flush doesn't come. Your lucky he wasn't a tough player and raised you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually he should be praying that he's up against a bigger king, since our Hero hits the straight on the river. Not that I know what I'm doing, but I bet this on the river. He could easily be up against a bigger king, or two pair..

KingSix

07-31-2004, 04:02 AM

First off, I want to thank everyone for the comments...some real good stuff here.

I'll tackle these as they were posted.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 3: On the river, going for the overcall seems sensible enough given the flush card on the turn and the gutshot. I think you played it well

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I just call on the river in hand 3. I think raising is close because that's how a lot of people would play if they had improved to two pair, being scared of the flush. However some scared players would also play a small set/flush/straight the same way and you'll I think you'll see too many of these to make raising profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

One part I left out of Hand #3 was that the player doing the river betting was the only somewhat "sensible" player at the table. Almost all of the other players were 40% + VP and less than 5% PFR. This particular player was in the low 30s on VP and about 8 on the PFR...I also didn't see any crazy cold calls in my PT profile(Why it was hard for me to imagine KTo here). I couldn't see how he had the flush, but I ended up only calling the river because he appeared to be a notch better than the others. My real question now is that if this is a good value bet opportunity with both the flush and the straight possible. We were three way on the turn and I'm wondering if I'm going to win more than 33% of these after seeing the river.

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, these are pretty good examples of draws hitting on the river and thats about it.

If the draws never hit it would get pretty damn hard to make these players put money in the pot, dont you think ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Like I said, I'm not that concerned with draws hitting the river. I have felt that a recent leak in my game, especially on Party was that I was backing off on the river after being shown the "scary" hand every time. In a sense, I was seeing "monsters" every time a scary river card came. In an effort to improve my game, I am trying to find that balance between knowing when the threat is real and when it just isn't likely so that I can go ahead and bet the river in those situations and not go into a weak tight shell.

[ QUOTE ]
Haj, regarding the last hand, KingSix ended up getting perfect low pair limping odds (5:1 seeing the flop), but do you really think it is safe limping in with 2-2 from EMP, after only 1 EP limper? I believe the game would need to be positively (and I mean positively) loose/passive to try such a thing. If someone raises behind him, that will almost certainly put Kingsix in a -EV situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

ASF for this game during my time there was 55.70. When I limped I considered the players(they had been at the table for sometime) The player to my immediate left was the reason I came to the table, his VP/PFR is 71.62/0.67. The next seat was sitting out. Guy in seat ten(button) is tight, but his PFR is 1.56. SB was 40VP/1.67PFR. In addition, average pot for this entire 2/4 session was $34.46 which is on the high end of most PP 2/4 tables I've played. The limp was very read dependent and it isn't something I would have done with a different set of players. In this particular case, on this particular hand I think it was +EV, but that doesn't mean that would be the case the next ten times I had 22.

I also noticed that with a loose game, SSH says that you should be playing almost any PP in MP.

[ QUOTE ]
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember reading in HEFAP that you want minimum 5:1 odds pre-flop to make the implied odds large enough to justify making a call with a med-low pair. If I am correct, I just don't see our Hero in this position, getting +EV. Of course, I'm being non-results oriented here, as this particular hand did work out for our Hero.

[/ QUOTE ]

HEFAP assumes you are playing against rational idividuals! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Again...thanks for all the comments.

King