JJ after SSH

[pokerOpus]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif. MP3 posts a blind of $2.
UTG folds, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 (poster) folds, CO calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, SB folds, BB folds, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 caps</font>, CO calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (14.50 SB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, <font color="CC3333">CO bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (10.25 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, CO checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, CO calls.

River: (12.25 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
CO checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls.

Final Pot: 14.25 BB

I was told by many people in the chatbox how badly I played the hand. Before reading SSH I would have never 3 bet preflop and never raised on the flop. I was trying to "protect the hand" on the flop raise and Im not sure if it was correct to do that. The turn Q gave me the open ended straight draw. I figured I had 8 outs at that point and decided to be aggresive again and try and make him fold. Comments?

[BottlesOf]

Well played. Don't make a habit of listening to other players' "advice."

[Danenania]

Anyone check behind on the river?

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone check behind on the river?


[/ QUOTE ]
no

[BottlesOf]

I ain't afraid of no ghosts.

[Danenania]

Hmm, he has a straight doesn't he? Oops! Go all-in.

[CPA]

I am not sure how raising on the flop would have protected your hand.....the players behind you still had the odds to draw to a gutshot. I think the pot is so big, you can't protect your hand here on the flop.

With that being said, I don't know exactly how to play this. It would depend on how aggressive utg is.

[jt1]

Hey Pros, tell me why you don't check the turn. I can think of two: 1) Hero has outs 2)possible flush draw. But since hero has no reads, I'd be more worried about a check raise bluff from a LAG that would neccesitate a river fold. Comments?

[TJD]

No one has said what occurred to me; so I may be wrong here.

Perhaps others would explain where I am in error.

What makes "protecting" your hand correct here? You have JJ, there are 2 opponents including a PF raiser who then capped and a CO who has cold called 2 bets twice.

Why does nobody think an ace might be out there?

I too would raise the flop but I would do it in order to try and find out wtf I am /images/graemlins/smile.gif

No reraise, the Q /images/graemlins/club.gif(except for someone having KQ(s)) and no bet to me on the turn makes me feel pretty good.

Any comments anyone?

[jt1]

[ QUOTE ]
I too would raise the flop but I would do it in order to try and find out wtf I am

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that is exactly it. I don't have the book yet, but I think that you're protecting against a steal. If your behind there is nothing to protect.

[BigEndian]

I would neither be afraid to bet the river, nor would I go all-in with this hand in a no-limit game.

- Jim

[BigEndian]

I'm going to disagree with the flop raise. Short of any reads on UTG+1, you can be 100% certain that he has you beaten on this flop and you are drawing extremely thin - fold. Raising is fool-hardy. You don't need to know where you are at, you should know where you are at when it was capped PF.

- Jim

[chesspain]

I agree that Hero overplayed this hand. Although the preflop openraiser may be playing scared with a hand like QQ/KK, he is still way ahead of you unless he was overplaying 99, which does seem to his holding after he folds the turn for one bet. More importantly, however, the fact that the CO bet the flop with you still to act should seem to make it painfully obvious that he has at least a pair of aces, and that he will not be laying down his cards unless you pry them from his cold, dead fingers. The only way you are ahead is if he has a Str8 draw. Consequently, if you are going to continue, you probably should raise the flop, in order to try to fold out UTG+1 if he has a scared QQ/KK. However, folding may still be best.

However, given the fact the neither player folded the flop, I would likely check behind on the turn, especially after you picked up the gutshot draw, since the odds of you being ahead of both players or taking down the turn with a bet are almost nil.

After checking the turn, I would decide what to do on the river (if unimproved) after seeing the action in front of me.

[Tosh]

How is there value in betting the turn? We can't fold to a raise and its clear we have the worst hand. Even though a raise isn't likely we're betting their hand for them.

[Joe Tall]

I would have never 3 bet preflop

This is easy. You have the 4th best hand in Hold'em, what else do you need.

I haven't read SSH but I'm sure you are misapplying something. I have SSH but I've only read parts of the quiz section so could you elaborate to what concept you are referring to? I'm sure there is an example, could you add that?

On to the hand:

We have a preflop capper and a CO-caller of a lot of action. Now there is an Ace on the flop and with such preflop action, it's very likely one of your opponents has an ace. The preflop capper checked the flop and the preflop-caller (CO) now bets out on that Ace. What does this action signify to you?

Raising this flop is going to get you 3-bet more often than you'll be "protecting" your hand. Not closing the action on the flop works against you as UTG+1, our preflop capper, may check-raise and if he calls the flop, fearing the ace, you could be looking at KK, QQ.

The situation is close to fold as you are not closing the action, although, the pot is sizeable and if you do turn a Jack, you hand has a decent chance of being good. Getting 15:1 to turn a 22:1 shot is slim, however, sticking a raise in versus 2-opponents will just about make up for lack odds you are getting on the flop if you do turn a jack. (I'm too lazy to do the math but if stheif is around, I'm sure he'll find 15:1 to be close enough versus 2 opponents here)

As for the way you played it:
After your flop raise and UTG and CO calling, it's unlikely anyone will fold to a single turn bet. With the Q coming off and you pick up of additional outs, you should check through and take the free card.

Welcome to the forum,
Joe Tall

[alekhine8]

Unless UTG+1 is a total rock, 3-betting the flop is the standard and correct play.

However, I hate the flop raise. It didn't accomplish anything here and at the Party 2/4 game, it won't accomplish much at all. Unless you think the other two in the hand are ultra-LAGs or unreasonable players, you are behind here badly. Most of the people in the Party 2/4 will call you down with any ace so why bother trying.

With 15.5 small bets in the pot, call the flop. UTG+1 could checkraise but I doubt it. Between the set and backdoor straight chances, you are getting the proper odds to do so. That, and you don't want to fold for one bet on the flop after its capped pre-flop. It just makes you look bad/weak.

I'd probably take the free card on the turn, but that's just me.

[Nottom]

I agree with pretty much everything JT said, its important to be aggressive in big pots with good hands, but remember theres a big difference in handd quality between a pot that is big because it was capped 3-4 ways and a pot that was 6 way to the flop for 2 bets.

[BottlesOf]

I'd like to get it heads up or possibly take it down there. While it's unlikely I have the best hand, I wouldn't say it's impossible. If it were heads up, I'd check through.

Although, it seems i may be off here.

As Joe said, it's very close whether or not to continue on the flop, but I believe it's correct.

[Tosh]

I think you're being very optimistic if you think we take this pot down with a turn bet as much as 1% of the time, if that. Its not impossible the jacks are best but its highly doubtful.

If you assume you are putting in 2 bets on the flop with 20 total out there after the action, then I don't think you can fold the flop. I'm sure the equity is higher than 10% so its right to continue but I can't see betting any non jack card.

[BaronVonCP]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to get it heads up or possibly take it down there. While it's unlikely I have the best hand, I wouldn't say it's impossible. If it were heads up, I'd check through.


[/ QUOTE ]

There is no way you are taking it down here, and what good does getting it heads up do? You still aren't going to win without some help.

And now you have to call a checkraise.

The flop raise isn't that bad against weak opponents, but I think the turn action is without a doubt a clear check.


I may be a little off here as well.

[Joe Tall]

I'd like to get it heads up or possibly take it down there

All most all the holdings, getting 11:1 on the turn, are incorrect to fold the turn. That goes well beyond if your opponents are thinking opponents.

And yes, I'm being very nice with this reply, you are welcome. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Peace,
Joe Tall

[BottlesOf]

I think 1% is low. After all, one person did fold here. And that does improve our chances of winning, no? Perhaps there's a high enough chance that there's someone with an overpair and he's not folding thus making this factor not important.

In any event, I'm willing to concede a turn check is a better play.

Also, don't feel like you need to be nice, as long as you help me see the light /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[pokerOpus]

I figured raising the flop would represent AK for me and likely drive one of the others who had A and bad kicker out. The raiser who capped preflop cold called the raise on the flop which was surprising. The turn check might have been in order, but im almost positive that if I check that turn I will be bet into by the CO. The reasoning behind the flop raise came from pg 176 of SSH as well as the reason for the turn bet. Im sure Im not applying things correctly but I remembered this example during that hand.

[Brian]

Hi pokerOpus,

Your thinking is way off-base.

[ QUOTE ]
figured raising the flop would represent AK for me and likely drive one of the others who had A and bad kicker out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't worry about trying to "represent" hands at the low limits. No one is thinking about any hand other than their own. And, even if it did cross someones mind that you might have them outkicked, they're still not ever folding top pair in this huge pot.

-Brian

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
I figured raising the flop would represent AK for me and likely drive one of the others who had A and bad kicker out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah...there are only two other players in the hand at this point: the preflop capper and the player who just bet into you. I promise you that neither is folding an ace. The reason you might raise is to try to get the preflop capper to fold QQ/KK.



[ QUOTE ]
The turn check might have been in order, but im almost positive that if I check that turn I will be bet into by the CO.

[/ QUOTE ]

That would be quite a feat for the CO to check-bet you on the turn after you check it through from the button /images/graemlins/smirk.gif. If you mean that the CO will bet the river, then so what...you may well be folding unimproved anyway. And the risk of a checkraise on the turn is too great when you have a hand with some outs to improve, and zero chance of taking it down with a bet.

[StellarWind]

With a 3-way backdoor straight draw this is effectively a 3-out hand getting 15.5-1 pot odds. That looks good enough to play on. The outs are not really clean but there should be some implied odds to compensate.

What is going on with the flop betting? It seems very likely that UTG+1 has KK/QQ for his cap and has developed aceophobia. Cutoff probably has an ace but after UTG+1 checks he could be betting a ten or an OESD. Raising does two good things:

1. It is very likely to fold UTG+1's higher second pair. His pot odds are less than 9-1 with Cutoff still to act and it sounds like he is beat in two seats. Getting rid of UTG+1 is valuable. We are not certain we are behind Cutoff and KK/QQ will have 6 or 10 outs if we spike a jack.

2. We will often get a free card as in the actual hand. We represent a bigger hand than the Cutoff is likely to have.

I'm still trying to understand why UTG+1 folded the turn. Chesspain may be right about 99 because his jack outs look tainted. Betting the turn is very poor and asking to be checkraised by any of three possible sets for UTG+1, aces up in the Cutoff, or heaven only knows other dangers. I don't see it winning the pot except by a miracle and I don't really need a showdown.

[jmark]

On the turn the only thing your bet could accomplish is getting KK to fold, freeing up your two jack outs, which would be quite a feat. Other than that you're not going to get 2 clubs to fold or an ace that stayed in when it was capped preflop.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
On the turn the only thing your bet could accomplish is getting KK to fold, freeing up your two jack outs, which would be quite a feat.

[/ QUOTE ]
Too late with the barn door. No way will KK fold the turn now that he has six outs.

[AceHigh]

Did you see that you have a straight?

[jmark]

[ QUOTE ]
No way will KK fold the turn now that he has six outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree -- by quite a feat I meant not really possible except with mind control.

[rjc199]

For heaven's sake turn off the chat. They are all idiots. Why would you ever worry about what people say in a chat box? Who do you think are better poker players? The random chat box people at party or us 2+2'ers????

[rjc199]

Ummmmm. It isn't to protect. It is because he has either the best hand or is trying for a free card (and it worked). Now on the turn I think I check. The board is really scary, you prolly have the best hand 15% of the time. You aren't folding anybody. I don't think this is a value bet.