Big Hand - If there was no capping HU, how many re-raises do you do?

[Avatar]

I don't think I could play this hand much differently. The question then is if there was no capping HU (like in a casino), how many re-raises would you go against a reasonable opponent on the river, before calling?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP2 folds, CO folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.25 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.

River: (14.25 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="CC3333">UTG+2 raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, <font color="CC3333">UTG+2 caps</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 23.25 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 23.25 BB, between Hero and UTG+2.</font>

Results to come later in the day...

[adanthar]

About 3 more rounds. If one of the spades was a club or if the J was an 8...about ten more rounds.

[bisonbison]

What is your read of UTG+2? It is kind of important here.

I would go to the felt.

[Aces McGee]

[ QUOTE ]
About 3 more rounds. If one of the spades was a club or if the J was an 8...about ten more rounds.

[/ QUOTE ]

What does any of that have to do with it?

-McGee

[Songwind]

Straight flush draw

[MoreWineII]

I can't imagine UTG+2 not showing more aggression on earlier streets if he flopped the straight flush. And wouldn't AKs probably 3-bet PF?

I could see him playing 10-10 like this though. Still, I'm going a few more rounds before I'm ready to concede quads.

[arkady]

I agree with bison, the read is important - but if I were to generalize MORE 2/4ers would limp in with TT then they would with AKs. However, there is just as strong of a possibility that you might be up against 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

So there are 3 possible hands that beat your FH. By breaking it down however, I can see that UTG+1 is not slow playing, anyone flopping a str8 flush is not going to raise the flop, no way, no how. Let alone bet on the turn with it - just don't believe that.

The guy slows down immediately on the turn raise and then goes buck wild on the river. He just got his 1 outer man.

You are up against quads.

I would put in 2 more raises and call it quits.

[Keats13]

I agree that reads would be useful here. As it is, there are 4 hands that can beat you. A good player will muck two of them from UTG+2 (K9s, 98s) and raise the other two (AKs, TT). If the player is known to be loose, he may have limped with the first two, and if passive, the 2nd two. Also, I don't think someone who will limp those hands will slowplay the flop. The exception being TT, as check/calling a set would fit with the passive style.

Hands that could cap the river that you're ahead of: QT(2), JT(6), T5(6), JJ(3), 55(3). That's 20 hands, although 9 of them (the T5 and 55 hands) are pretty unlikely, and the JJ would have been played very passively. I could definitely see QT or JT playing this way, though.

I'd like to say I'd go to the felt also, but depending on how far away "the felt" was, I'd probably wimp out and call a 6-bet. Maybe, if I was feeling especially bold, I'd 7-bet and call an 8-bet.

[MoreWineII]

I didn't even think of 89s. Bleh.

But given this action:

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q, Q.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) J, T, Q (5 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, UTG+2 calls, MP2 folds, CO folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.25 BB) 5 (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, UTG+2 calls, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.

River: (14.25 BB) T (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 caps, Hero calls.

I wouldn't put UTG+2 on a flopped straight flush. At the very least, he's going to try and get some more turn action. Although he *did* get two bets out of you guys.

I agree with arkady, except UTG+1 folded so he doesn't have quads. I think UTG+2 does though. You're probably up against 10-10. That's a hand he'd limp with PF. It's a hand he'd call the flop with. And it's a hand he might chicken out on the turn with. And it's a hand he'd blow his wad with on the river.

If it fits, you must say "oh {darn}."

[sthief09]

if he beat you, he either drastically underplayed a flopped set of tens, or retardedly slowplayed a straight or royal flush. neither is that likely.

[TxSteve]

am I an idiot for thinking he could be up against J T and his hand will be good?

edit: forgot to answer the question he was asking. I would probably go 6 bets without thinking twice. If he reraised me to 7; I'd probably begin believing him and just call

[MoreWineII]

At Party 2-4, hell nah.

[Vermicious Knid]

This is a tough one. You really can't put him on AK of spades with no pre-flop raise. You can't put him on JJ for that reason either. The only other hands that make sense are 98 of spades (K9 of spades is also a possibility, but is almost the same for analysis purposes except that K9s would be the nuts), TT, J10 and Q10. No pre-flop raise makes sense for all four hands. The latter three hands explain the river action as the T is what makes him a hand. I think a read comes into play with the possibility of 98 of spades. Is this a player capable of slow-playing in this situation. Slow-playing the flop is one thing, but I have seen very few 2/4 level players slow play on the turn with a monster.

I think j10 or q10 is the most likely hand here (With 10-10 being a distinct possibility). If there was unlimited raising, I would probably have put in a 5th bet and if he raised again I would just call. It is already a huge pot and there is no sense getting too greedy. If either of you were short-stacked by this point ($30 or less), I might keep going, but if both of you have decent size stacks there is no reason to go to the felt without the nuts.

[PokerNoob]

I'd go a couple of more bets. QQ is a pretty obvious holding for you, but he may be stupid and think his slowplayed Ax spades is good. Either that or woke up when his JT boated. On the other hand, he knows his bet closes the action here and maybe he doesn't make it otherwise. Anyway, I would be more worried about TT than the straight flush.

[colgin]

I would go a couple more bets and then call. A lot of people will cap with a hand that is far from the nuts BECAUSE there is a cap. If you take away the cap then even a poor player may start to take another look at the board.

There are four possible hands that beat you, however unlikely they may be. If there was no cap and the player kept betting into you, and if your hand is good, that means that your opponent should realize that there are at least five hands (possibly more) that beat him. Will your opponent keep betting into you under those circumstances? In a HU no-cap situation sometimes you have to look beyond hoow likely it is that a player has an unlikely holding and respect the fact that he has what he is representing. I might go a few more rounds but going to the felt here would be ludicrous regardless of your read on your opponent.

Just my 2 cents.

Colgin

[bunky9590]

Six or seven bets is about right

[arkady]

you know whats funny, i must be tired - i didnt even know there was a UTG+2 involved. i should read these a bit more carefully next time.

[sfer]

Yeah, I agree with the Pooh-Bah. Between 5-7 is about how far I go without the nuts.

Generally, I think that there is much too much river 4-betting online because the cap protects you.

[hutz]

We're working completely without a read on our opponent here, right? If so, I'd go at least three more bets. If there weren't multiple straight flush possibilities out there, I'd be inclined to go a few more bets beyond that.

[MoreWineII]

That's what threw me off. Suddenly UTG+2 went buck nuts on the river after UTG+1 and hero were batting it out the whole way.

I suppose it's possible he could have JJ, Q-10, or J-10.

[Kaz The Original]

He probably has 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, knowing Party Poker ; 0

[gamblore99]

my guess is pocket 22

[Avatar]

Sorry for the lack of player read. It was important and I forgot to include it.
UTG+2 was loose/passive. VPIP = 54% / PFR = 3.5%.

RESULTS - UTG+2 shows 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif-8/images/graemlins/spade.gif for the flopped straight flush.

I felt it was a tough hand to put him on. A Solid TAG would be mucking this hand pf, raising 10-10, and A/images/graemlins/spade.gif-K/images/graemlins/spade.gif. I thought for sure I was good.
But how can you narrow down the hands of a LOOPY player. His holdings could have been countless. ie. - J-10, Q-10, JJ, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif-x/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2-2, etc. Oh well.