Home Poker League

[Chee7718]

I'm looking for some advice on setting up a poker league for my home game group. I wonder if anyone out there has done such a thing, and if so (or even if not) I'm hoping for a little advice.

Background: My group already has established a pretty regular monthly poker night. We have played every month for over a year now. We have a solid core of 4-6 regular players and a fairly vast pool of 20-25 occasional players; while some players' attendance dwindles we continue to find new players. We average around 12-14 people a month, with a high of 24 and a low of 8. With our fast blind schedule, we always play two tournaments per night (each with unlimited rebuys for the first hour).

Proposed League Setup: 10% of the prize pool from each monthly event will be pulled out for the Championship Tourney. So 90% of the $$ will be returned to the players per our usual payouts. Players will receive points during our monthly games as described below, and then in six months (or would four be better?) the top 8 in points will play in a Championship Tourney with their starting chips proportional to their points.

Points:
1 point for every buyin.
1 point for every player you eliminate from the tournament.
5 points for the best hand of the evening.
5 points for the best losing hand of the evening.
Points for finishing position based on the number of starting tables
Place / 1 table / 2 tables / 3 tables
1 / 10 / 15 / 20
2 / 8 / 12 / 15
3 / 6 / 10 / 12
4 / 5 / 8 / 10
5 / 4 / 6 / 8
6 / 3 / 4 / 6
7 / 2 / 2 / 4
8 / 1 / 1 / 2

Championship Tourney: Top point getter would get a starting stack of about 10,000 chips, while the 8th place finisher would start with about 2,000, with payouts of 50%, 30%, 20%, for the top three finishers in the Championship Tourney.

My hope would be that this league would stabilize our attendance, but my fear is that it might scare off some of the less consistent players.

Can you think of any other setup that might work?
Is 10% a good value to pull from the individual tourneys for the Championship Tourney?
Are there any other fun or interesting ways we might accumulate points?
What do you think of the point values I’ve assigned above?

Thanks in advance,
Dan

[MrGo]

Sounds fun. However I don't like the chip advantage for the highest point total. 10,000 - 2,000 is very unfair. If you want to give a chip advantage, make it less drastic, IMO.

[Chee7718]

[ QUOTE ]
10,000 - 2,000 is very unfair. If you want to give a chip advantage, make it less drastic, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that there would be a huge advantage to the players with more points and bigger starting stacks. But realize that an alternative to playing this Championship Tourney would be to simply award the top point getter 50% of the prize pool, with second and third getting 30% and 20% respectively. At least with the tourney those who were in the 3-8 spots have some chance to win a piece of that Championship money.

Also remember the top point getter has certainly earned those points and that spot through the past six months of tourneys.

Besides, the idea of a Championship Tourney is just way more fun. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

If the 10000-2000 spread still seems too large, what would you suggest?

We could set it up with a purely linear function, such as Starting Chips = Points x 50.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[Kdowski]

I've been thinking about doing something like this myself for our Tournaments which take place every 3-4 wks and having a Grand Championship. I was thinking of structuring it based upon the WPT Tournament of Champions.
The Winner of all the previous Tournaments gets an invite plus a few others based on some type of point system.
20 People in the Tournament.. 20th place = 1 point, 19th = 2 points........... 1st place = 20 plus bonus points.
Between all the Champs and the select other few the Highest point total gets an extra 500 or something like that in chips, since we start with 2900 that would be a pretty nice amount.
Have the Championship once a year winner take all plus maybe a Trophy of some sorts like a Beer Challis, something that can be engraved and passed on from year to year, like the Stanley Cup, with the winner housing it for that year
I wouldn't take 10% from the regular games... I would only take 5,10,20 dollars/per game based upon the amount people at your regular game + the regular buy in at the Championship. That should make a nice little pot at the end. Just my 2cents....

[MrGo]

Well that depends. Is your Champ. tournament at the end of the 6 months going to have an entry fee? if so, how much?

Perhaps the top point getter could have a free buy-in into the championship tournament AND more chips. Just a thought.

If you want to give more chips, then the last place player playing in the championship should have more than 2000.
Maybe have that player start with 5000 and the top player with 12000 or 13000.

[Chee7718]

I was thinking the Championship Tournament would essentially be a freeroll - no entry fee, and the prize pool coming from the 10% pulled from the monthly games.

[MrGo]

What are the buy-ins each week?

[BusterFlush]

Dan,

I have a weekly home game and have thought of doing something similar and like your ideas. However, I extremely do not like awarding final chips based on points.
Here is what I have found at my game. The players are fairly even where the cards over the course of the night decide the winners and losers more than the play. Now we do have some players obviously better than others but it always seems like one of the weaker ones always finish in the money each week.
I bet if you use your point system with the same players over a long enough time period(6 sessions), the difference in points between 1st and 8th may be very small. Should the point leader start with a big advantage in stacks over such a small point differential?
I would favor starting everyone with equal chips and finding another way to reward the leaders. Your worst case scenario is that the points are bragging rights.

[Chee7718]

$15 buyins.

Like I said, we always do two rounds per night, and we have unlimitted rebuys during the first hour of each tourney. We usually get about 40-60% in rebuys.

So, for example, if we have 14 people one night, we'll typically have 6-8 rebuys per round... for a total of 21 buyins per round x2 rounds x$15 x10% = a donation of $63 to the Championship Tourney per night x6 months = a total Championship Tourney Prize Pool of $378.

Which is pretty significant for us, if you consider one of our $15 buyin tourneys (14 people, with 21 buyins) will only have a $315 prize pool.

[Chee7718]

I agree with you. Most of our players are fairly even too. It will be interesting (and fun) to see how the points distribute over six months of play.

I'm not sure that there is any other way to reward the point leaders, besides using the points to determine starting chip counts.

Maybe we should include 16 players in the Championship Tourney. That way nearly everyone would get to play in it... and it'll make more sense to have a larger differencial between the starting chips counts.

If we have a players starting chips = their points x 50, then if a group of the players all have fairly similar point values they will all have similar starting chips. If the points distribute evenly, then the starting chips distribute evenly. If there are large gaps in point values, then there will be large gaps in starting stack values.

Again - as I said in a later post - I'm thinking this Championship Tourney is a Freeroll. Players participating in this tourney have essientially paid their entry fees during the previous six months, and the 10% taken off the top of those previous six months' worth of tournaments makes up the prize pool for the Championship Tourney.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
Sounds fun. However I don't like the chip advantage for the highest point total. 10,000 - 2,000 is very unfair. If you want to give a chip advantage, make it less drastic, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this as well, I think a better solution would be something like a abse amount of T1000 or T1500 and then additional chips based on how many "points" that player recived (maybe like T100 per point, although I have no clue how many points each players would have so this is just off that top of my head)

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
If we have a players starting chips = their points x 50, then if a group of the players all have fairly similar point values they will all have similar starting chips. If the points distribute evenly, then the starting chips distribute evenly. If there are large gaps in point values, then there will be large gaps in starting stack values.


[/ QUOTE ]

I liek this idea ... but would suggest haveing a base number of chips that you add this to. Maybe T1000 or T500 plus the extra chips.

[niagarapoker]

Sorry for the long post but here are our league rules:

The league will consist of 36 players and the cost will be $75 per person/per month. We will be playing tournament style and will be starting out with 4 tables of 9 players. The tournament should be completed by approximately 11:00pm - 11:30pm.

Your total cost will be $525.00 (7 Tournaments x $75.00/tournament = $525.00). The money will be due in 3 equal payments of $175.00.

Each month we will be taking out a portion of the prize pool to go towards the following:

• $2700.00 total will be collected each month (36 players x $75.00)
• $540.00 will go towards buffet and gratuity ($15.00/player)
• $635.00 will be set aside for the year end top finishers. (Explained in detail below)
• $1525.00 will go towards the payout for that month’s tournament. (Payout structure below)
• 1st $475.00
• 2nd $300.00
• 3rd $225.00
• 4th $170.00
• 5th $130.00
• 6th $100.00
• 7th $ 75.00
• 8th $ 50.00

The league will run from April 2004 through October 2004 (November 2004 we will not play). The league will start again in December 2004 and run through October 2005. In the month of November 2004, we will be sending the TOP 6 finishers from our league to the $500.00 + $65.00 No Limit Tournament at Foxwoods Casino in Connecticut. We will determine the top 4 league finishers by keeping track of how each player finishes in each month’s tournament.
Each month:
• The 32nd place finisher will receive 1 point.
• The 31st place finisher will receive 2 points.
• …
• The 2nd place finisher will receive 35 points.
• The 1st place finisher will receive 36 points.

In addition, the top 3 at each month’s tournaments will receive bonus points for their high finish. First place will receive 5 bonus points, second place will receive 3 bonus points, and third place will receive 1 bonus point. The top 6 point leaders after the October 2004 tournament will receive the following:

• 1st place - $820.00 ($565.00 to be applied towards Foxwoods Tournament – rest in cash)
• 2nd place - $775.00 ($565.00 to be applied towards Foxwoods Tournament – rest in cash)
• 3rd place - $750.00 ($565.00 to be applied towards Foxwoods Tournament – rest in cash)
• 4th place - $725.00 ($565.00 to be applied towards Foxwoods Tournament – rest in cash)
• 5th place - $700.00 ($565.00 to be applied towards Foxwoods Tournament – rest in cash)
• 6th place - $675.00 ($565.00 to be applied towards Foxwoods Tournament – rest in cash)

If you can’t attend one of the monthly tournaments, you must still pay your $75.00. You are allowed to send a substitute to play in your absence. Any points the sub earns will be applied towards your ranking. If you are not able to send a substitute player, you must still pay your $75.00 and you will receive 1 point for that month’s tournament.

All players start with $500 in chips and the Blind structure will be as follows:

Round # Minutes Blinds
1 45 5/10
Break
2 45 10/15
Break Color Up
3 30 25/50
4 25 50/100
Break Color Up
5 25 100/200
6 25 200/400
Break
7 20 400/800
8 20 500/1000
9 ? 1000/2000

My 2 cents, I'd rather get the money than the Foxwoods seat seeing as I still have to get myself to Foxwoods on my own dime.

[Rick Diesel]

[ QUOTE ]

Points:
1 point for every buyin.
1 point for every player you eliminate from the tournament.
5 points for the best hand of the evening.
5 points for the best losing hand of the evening.
Points for finishing position based on the number of starting tables
Place / 1 table / 2 tables / 3 tables
1 / 10 / 15 / 20
2 / 8 / 12 / 15
3 / 6 / 10 / 12
4 / 5 / 8 / 10
5 / 4 / 6 / 8
6 / 3 / 4 / 6
7 / 2 / 2 / 4
8 / 1 / 1 / 2


[/ QUOTE ]

In my honest opinion, your point system is stupid. Poker is a game measured by one thing, WINNINGS. The only points that you should get should be for coming in the money. So if every tournament, you pay four places, then 1st gets 10 points, 2nd gets 6, 3rd gets 3 and 4th gets 1.

Giving points for the best hand and the best losing hand is absolutely pointless. Taking down the pot with ace high does just as much as taking down the pot with a straight flush. This could also affect decision making during the tournament, such as someone that is on a straight flush draw may not bet, fearing that everyone may fold, so they can draw to the straight flush.

Points for buying in and eliminating players are also unnecessary.

If you run 2 tournies a night, for six months, that is a total of 12 tournies. I would give points to the top 4-5 players in each tournament. You could also make a rule that only the top 5 point amounts count toward the championship. Therefore, people that don't make it every time still have a shot to get as many points as the people that do make it every time.

[jedi]

I'm skipping past the replies and letting you know what we do in our league:

We have a series of tournaments, probably 18 or so tournaments, covering all types of games, Limit/NL/PL, Hold Em/Omaha/Stud, and even oddball games like Triple Draw Lowball, HORSE, and even Dealer's Choice for any flop based game.

Buy-ins for the first 12 tournaments were 10+1, the remaining ones are 20+2 with double points (which I'll explain soon). "Rookies" (people who haven't cashed yet) were given a 10% discount on the buy-in.

Points were awarded as follows: For less than 8 people in the tournamnet, 1st got 5 points and 65% of the prize pool, 2nd got 3 points and 35% of the prize pool. Bubble boy 3rd got 2 points, and everyone else got 1 point for participating.

Between 8 and 18 people, it was similar. 1st = 50%/8 points, 2nd 30%/5 points, 3rd 20% 3points, 4th = 2 points, everyone else 1 point.

Over 18 people we paid off 4 spots and increased the 1st place point to 10 and went down from there.

Also, we randomly drew for a "bounty" at the start of the tournament. Whoever knocked out the bounty got an extra point. Also rookies got "reverse bounty" points. One extra point for each player he/she knocked out while a rookie.

These points all go towards the end of the year freeroll NLHE tournament. We start with 10,000 in chips + 100 for each point earned during the tournament series. This rewards participation as well as people who cash. The money comes from the "+1" fees collected during the tournament series. Half of the fees collected go to the 1st and 2nd place point winners at the end of the year, the other half goes towards the freeroll tournament. You MUST have played in at least 1 tournament to participate in the freeroll.

It's fun, and we get 3 hours of play or so for $10. Not bad.

[Chee7718]

I realize that to you (and any other serious poker player) WINNINGS is the only thing important to you. However, you have to keep in mind that this is a FREINDLY home game. We're not all in it for the money. So if someone is more interested in chasing the "stupid" points than winning a pot, so be it.

It's true that after the six months, the person with the most points might not be the best player, and might not even have won the most money. So what?!? We just take those points, turn them into chips and play in another tournament anyhow - a freeroll - and if you're in it for the money, there is no better tournament than a freeroll (no matter how many chips you start out with)!!

I also realize that "the best winning hand", "the best losing hand" and the bounties are all going to be earned by luck more than skill. So what? The idea is to add some fun to these events - and create a long term goal for people to work toward in order to keep attendance up. If only the top finishers - the top money winners - were recieving all the points, those players who weren't money winners (and therefore point winners) wouldn't have much incentive to keep playing (and paying!)

Anyhow, I appreciate you thoughts, and I hope you can appreciate mine.

Maybe the points ARE to skewed toward random events?

Thanks,
Dan

[Chee7718]

That sounds like a good setup. Thanks for the input.

How do the points and starting stacks usually end up for you guys at your freeroll tournament? What was the high point getters total, and what was the average??

Do you have a good consistant core of people in your group? How much turn around do you see (new people joining and old people falling out)?

Thanks,
Dan

[dabluebery]

I'm doing this in my poker "league," almost exactly the same way.

I've devised a series of stats for the tournaments and ring games we play, and then rake like $2 per player for each of the 16 events we hold in our "season."

We're going to take the raked money, and hold a NL holdem tournament as a "playoff," and we're using my STATS to determine the stack sizes.

1st place gets 3000, 10th place gets 2000, and everyone in between has between 2 and 3k chips, depending on their rank.

Everyone likes this idea, and because it's a freeroll, no one really cares about their stack sizes. (Except the one player who's 10th, who is REALLY irrational.)

Rob

[AcesKracked]

I have been thinking about doing the same thing in our bi-weekly game. I like the idea of "rookies" having a slightly lower buy-in and the bountys awarded for newbies. I have a core group of about 8 w/ another 6-10 occasional players - we would just like to keep everyone intersted and hopefully steadily grow the group. I like many of the ideas already posted, anyone else tried anything like this?
AcesKracked

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
That sounds like a good setup. Thanks for the input.

How do the points and starting stacks usually end up for you guys at your freeroll tournament? What was the high point getters total, and what was the average??

Do you have a good consistant core of people in your group? How much turn around do you see (new people joining and old people falling out)?

Thanks,
Dan

[/ QUOTE ]

This is our first year doing it, so I don't have chip counts for the end-of-year freeroll. Last year, we just awarded the extra prize pool to the first and second place finishers. That left the final tournament as somewhat anti-climatic. There was nothing to play for (other than the normal prize pool) for everyone else.

When we started, we had a core group of like 6 people. Since then, we revamped the system to the one I showed you, and we've had a minimum of 8 in every tournament, with a high of 19. I'd say the average is 12-14, meaning we start with 2 tables of 6/7. Word of mouth is how we increased our numbers. We play roughly every 2 weeks, so we don't suffer too much from burnout. No one has "dropped out" meaning they just don't show up, but people do have their lives to lead. Whenever it's convienent for them, they'll show up.

If you want, PM me your email address and I'll try to find our rules sheet for the series.

-Jedi

[Lottery Larry]

I would only play in this if it WERE a freeroll. Paying extra money to be down 5:1 or more in chips at the start isn't a good idea.

One thing I DON'T like about your system- the points winners who get a free shot at the money have already made most of the money AND the points throughout the year.
As the losers, I have to pay them money that I have no shot at from each entry I invest. They profit each week anyway AND get a chance to win money that I can't, if I don't win enough each week to get points to make it.

The hand bonuses you have are a nice touch. The knockout bonus is interesting, but isn't this also a case of making the rich even richer? If I knock out 5 out of 10 players, odds are I'm a favorite to win the tournament and get paid.... AND I get extra points?

The point system I use is simplier and I'm not doing what you are with the freeroll at the end. Just thought I'd put it out here for consideration.

POINTS
7- Bottom 1/2 of non-cash
10- Top 1/2 of non-cash
15- Cash place prize winners
20- 3rd (-5 for single table, -10 if 7 or less)
25- 2nd (-5 for single table, -10 if 7 or less)
35- 1st (-5 for single table, -10 if 7 or less)


The adjustments are due to places paid- 7 or less, only two cash prizes. 11 to 8, 3 places paid, so no need to be higher than the cash finishers (there are no others).

LL

[Lottery Larry]

"I'm not sure that there is any other way to reward the point leaders, besides using the points to determine starting chip counts. "

The point leaders probably are already rewarded with green slips of paper

[Lottery Larry]

"Poker is a game measured by one thing, WINNINGS. The only points that you should get should be for coming in the money"

Depends on what you think the point totals are- a reward for winning on TOP of the cash you get?

Without all of the non-winners, how worth it would winning a tournament be? Not too lucrative. Besides, should you give the player who comes EVERY week and contributes a chance, versus a player who comes 2 out of 10 weeks, gets lucky/good and wins twice and never plays again until the championship?

Stupid isn't quite the word I would have used.

[gte910h]

You could also reward the top X with a free buy in to the tournament at the end plus a little extra cash. Something like:

Budget X amount for extra rewards.
Sum up all points players 1-7 have in excess of player 8's points (Total Excess)
Give Players 1-8 free entries plus ExtraRewardKitty*(TheirPoints-Player8'sPoints)/TotalExcess
Allow buyin's to the final event as well.

[Lottery Larry]

by the way, here are my results so far after 6 tournaments

POINTS-- Tourneys-- 1st-- 2nd-- 3rd-- Cash-- top 1/2-- bottom 1/2
129- - 6 - - 3 - - 0 - - 0 - - 0 - - 1 - - 2 -
107- - 6 - - 1 - - 0 - - 2 - - 1 - - 1 - - 1 -
75- - 4 - - 1 - - 0 - - 0 - - 2 - - 1 - - 0 -
72- - 4 - - 0 - - 2 - - 0 - - 1 - - 0 - - 1 -
70- - 4 - - 0 - - 2 - - 0 - - 0 - - 2 - - 0 -
55- - 4 - - 0 - - 0 - - 1 - - 1 - - 2 - - 0 -
54- - 6 - - 0 - - 0 - - 0 - - 0 - - 4 - - 2 -
44- - 6 - - 0 - - 0 - - 0 - - 0 - - 2 - - 4 -
42- - 2 - - 1 - - 0 - - 0 - - 0 - - 0 - - 1 -
41- - 4 - - 0 - - 0 - - 1 - - 0 - - 0 - - 3 -
39- - 3 - - 0 - - 1 - - 0 - - 0 - - 0 - - 2 -
37- - 4 - - 0 - - 0 - - 0 - - 0 - - 3 - - 1 -
37- - 3 - - 0 - - 0 - - 1 - - 0 - - 1 - - 1 -
35- - 2 - - 0 - - 1 - - 0 - - 0 - - 1 - - 0 -
35- - 3 - - 0 - - 0 - - 0 - - 1 - - 2 - - 0 -
35- - 5 - - 0 - - 0 - - 0 - - 0 - - 0 - - 5 -
30- - 2 - - 0 - - 0 - - 1 - - 0 - - 1 - - 0 -
30- - 2 - - 0 - - 0 - - 0 - - 2 - - 0 - - 0 -
27- - 3 - - 0 - - 0 - - 0 - - 0 - - 2 - - 1 -
21- - 3 - - 0 - - 0 - - 0 - - 0 - - 0 - - 3 -
17- - 2 - - 0 - - 0 - - 0 - - 0 - - 1 - - 1 -
17- - 2 - - 0 - - 0 - - 0 - - 0 - - 1 - - 1 -
17- - 2 - - 0 - - 0 - - 0 - - 0 - - 1 - - 1 -
10- - 1 - - 0 - - 0 - - 0 - - 0 - - 1 - - 0 -
10- - 1 - - 0 - - 0 - - 0 - - 0 - - 1 - - 0 -

I'll have to see if this is weighted too heavily to the cash positions versus constant participation. Note that people who have never cashed are well behind at this point but not impossibly behind, if they can win, even if they are at less tourneys.

This gives a lot of people a shot at making the top 10.

[Lottery Larry]

Is this a bad or good idea? Jedi's two tiers made me think of a makeup tournament format

1) Only players who have never cashed get to pay and play, giving them a chance to "make up" points with a win

2) Certain tournaments, open to all, can be designated "Catch up tournaments" that anyone can play in. Leaders can pad their totals or lucky lower players can jump up. It would not have to be a higher buy-in

Anyone but Rick /images/graemlins/wink.gif can respond to this

[AcesKracked]

What I have been thinking about his having the top 8-10 in pts. qualify to play and get an increasingly large size stack. #1 start w/ 3500 down to #10 at 2500 - the qualifiers will pay half of what the "rookies" and non-qualifiers pay to play say $10/$20 or whatever. Anyone buying in who did not qualify will pay the $20 and have the small chip stack (2500). This seems like it would be fair to the qualifiers as well as give everyone else to play for the "big Money"

[stags14]

[ QUOTE ]
My 2 cents, I'd rather get the money than the Foxwoods seat seeing as I still have to get myself to Foxwoods on my own dime.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey there, hi there, ho there. Funny to see this on here...

If you make top 6, the extra cash will cover a few tanks of gas and a room at a nearby hotel. There is also a good possibility that several people will carpool and split hotel rooms thereby lowering your out of pocket even more.

Not 100% on who this is, but I have a sneaking suspicion JA /images/graemlins/wink.gif

See you on September 13th - same time - same place.

Stags

PS - We have a waiting list of 30 or more people for next year's league.

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
Is this a bad or good idea? Jedi's two tiers made me think of a makeup tournament format


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think I mentioned this, but in our format, we get to drop 2 of the lowest point scores (including zeroes). This reduces a penalty for people who miss tournaments.

[mrwhippy]

Dont know if youve lost interest in this thread or not now Dan, but if not I would suggest that points are awarded simply on finishing place and that you effectively have a league table. It would work like so....
1) top 5 get points 1st=5 pts, 5th=1point
2) you work it over a full year ending say, christmas/ new year
3)top of the table at the end of the final game gets top prize (second, second and so on)
4)final game is double stakes, normal league rake but double points....a game within a game
5)Prize money comes from pots in each game (10% sounds good...you want a nice big prize)

That way all players are always on a "level playing field" and the BEST player over the year will be the one who wins the trophy and the cash.Any method other than success in tourneys to allocate points is simply unfair. Occasional players will be encouraged to play in that if they dont play, yes, there money doesnt get cut but they also have no chance of winning that night and less chance of winning the league overall. By "doubling" the final night you get a better chance of making it a thriller!!
If you look on Phil Hellmuths site I believe the pros did/do something like this already.Enjoy!!

[Chee7718]

No, I've certainly not lost interest in this league idea. I appreciate your thoughts, and everyone else's input too. I've pulled together what I think makes the most sense for our group, and I plan on talking with them about it at our next regular monthly game this Friday night. There are a lot of options, different ways to do this - hopefully we can get some sort of consensus out of our group.

I think it should be fun!

I'll post when we come to an agreement.