Stupid Laydown? (Am I weak tight?)

[Kripke]

Played this hand about 10 minutes ago on PP. Afterwards I was wondering if I played it correctly? Game was pretty loose with very few raises preflop, which is why I limp UTG here. (Dont slaughter me)

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (8 SB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(8 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB folds, BB folds.

Turn: (7 BB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, CO calls $2.25 (All-In), Button folds, Hero folds, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 caps</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 calls.

River: (18.56 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players, 1 all-in)</font>
<font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 20.56 BB
<font color="white">Main Pot: 9.81 BB, between UTG+1, MP2 and CO.</font>
<font color="white">Pot 2: 10.75 BB, between UTG+1 and MP2.</font>

[sthief09]

don't fold 2-card flush draws. it's that simple.

and don't bet the turn. it's pointless.

[lil']

I would not bet the turn, I'd let the guy with the 6 bet the turn for me, because I don't want to have to call two bets here. Your turn semi-bluff bet also is not good because you have no chance of picking up the pot against 5 opponents.

You don't even need 5:1 odds to call and see if your flush draw comes through. Folding the turn was a large error, since I think the pot was giving you around 7.5:1 (if my math is right.)

[Kripke]

Well, my reasoning was this: Ok, at least UTG+1 or MP2 has a 6, one of them could already have a house (TT, 44) and then I’m drawing dead. Assuming that only of them has a 6 – I then have 7 clean outs (since the 10/images/graemlins/club.gif, and whatever card the guy with the 6 has to fill up – are no good.)

I suspected a cap from UTG+1, which would effectively give me 3:21 odds. So, I’m getting 1:7 from the pot and getting 1:6.5 to hit my flush (hope my math is right). But I could already be drawing dead. Betting the turn was definitely the mistake here. Actually that was what screwed it up for me.

Considering the math it is a close call, but if I don’t bet the turn and just call, I think I’m making the right move.

[TheHip41]

Just check/call. If the game is as loose as it is, no one with a 10, or a 6 is going to fold to your bet, and also any pocket pair might call, or ace high, all kinds of trash /images/graemlins/wink.gif If you check and call, you will have odds to call. And remember, full houses don't grow on trees.

Derek

[pokerkai]

I hate being passive but this is definitely a situation where check calling is the smart play.

I dont like the flop bet...suppose UTG raises...that instantly kills all your customers...same with the turn bet (although that didnt turn out to be the case)

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, my reasoning was this: Ok, at least UTG+1 or MP2 has a 6, one of them could already have a house (TT, 44) and then I’m drawing dead. Assuming that only of them has a 6 – I then have 7 clean outs (since the 10/images/graemlins/club.gif, and whatever card the guy with the 6 has to fill up – are no good.)

I suspected a cap from UTG+1, which would effectively give me 3:21 odds. So, I’m getting 1:7 from the pot and getting 1:6.5 to hit my flush (hope my math is right). But I could already be drawing dead. Betting the turn was definitely the mistake here. Actually that was what screwed it up for me.

Considering the math it is a close call, but if I don’t bet the turn and just call, I think I’m making the right move.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't fold your flush draws on the turn unless the board is doublepaired and you have to call 2 bets or more. If you just follow this one rule, you'll be correct about 99% of the time.

Betting the turn wasn't the mistake - folding the turn was.

[Kripke]

Ok, thanks for the rule of thumb.

However, this was exactly the case here. Board paired, I bet, UTG+1 raises, MP2 3-bets - 2 raises back to me and a possible cap from UTG+1.

[BaronVonCP]

doublepaired

[Kripke]

Ohh ... My mistake, I apologise.

[Kripke]

I think an argument can be made for the flop bet. Maybe I'm misunderstanding Ed Miller, but my plan is to make overcards (non-clubs) fold on the flop. Then, if I miss my flush, hitting an A maybe good. Thus increasing my chances of winning the pot.

Of course, when the board pairs on the turn, I should have check/called and given up my semi-bluff.

However, I'm just throwing around random ideas. It's great with some good feedback.

[balkii]

The flop bet is SOP, its a value bet. You'd like it to get raised so you can 3-bet your huge draw on this flop.

Turn I probably check, you have no real semibluff opportunities and not much in the way of a value bet. You also like not to get raised.

Turn fold is very bad. Ed Miller talks about the cost of this fold in his book. On a T66x flop, your A9 has somewhere around 25% pot equity. So when you fold in this 14BB pot you are basically giving up 3.5 BBs. Even if it gets capped it only costs 3BB to see the river. But if it gets capped there will be 19BBs in the pot. So your equity is then 4.75 BBs, which means you lose 1.75 BBs by folding.* This is HUGE.

Not to mention implied odds!


* can someone correct me if I'm wrong here? I had never thought of pot equity/odds in this way before reading IT.