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View Full Version : The Official " Characteristics Of A Winning SNG Player" Thread


Desdia72
07-29-2004, 12:02 PM
list the characteristics you think a winning SNG player possesses (meaning he already has them and is profiting from them), regardless of the buy-in level. what are the characteristics of this type player that distances him/her from other players?

*NL SNGs*

mrbill22
07-29-2004, 12:17 PM
Patience.

Kurn, son of Mogh
07-29-2004, 01:30 PM
Beat me too it. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I think one of the downsides of playing mainly SNGs is that your MTT game suffers because you tend to play tighter than is optimal in a MTT.

WC64
07-29-2004, 02:10 PM
I agree with both of those comments lol

Cleveland Guy
07-29-2004, 02:12 PM
[ QUOTE ]

I think one of the downsides of playing mainly SNGs is that your MTT game suffers because you tend to play tighter than is optimal in a MTT.

[/ QUOTE ]

My problem is the opposite.

I am used to being in a much looser mode when blinds get to like 300/600. In a SnG - its down to like 2-4 players by then, and in a MTT, you are still at many tables.

This is probably my biggest MTT leak as I loosen up early based on experience from SnGs.

But patience is the key. That and remembering - you can only lose a tournament in the first level, never win one.

mistrpug
07-29-2004, 03:03 PM
Play super tight and then aggresively stealing blinds when it gets shorthanded.

zephyr
07-29-2004, 04:13 PM
Adjustments: blinds, number of players, buy in, stack sizes, site, players, cards, etc. etc.

Always be adjusting!

Zephyr

Dominic
07-29-2004, 04:18 PM
don't limp with hands like K-10, Q-10, K-J...especially early in the tournament...they are utterly useless hands...now when it's down to 3 or 4 players, if you're gonna play these hands - bring it in for a raise! At least you might steal the blinds. Same goes for suited connectors in the later rounds...if you're gonna play 'e, might as well raise with 'em...you get folding equity as well as decption on the flop. No one will be able to figure out what you have.

Also...there's no point to stealing the blinds with less than optimal hands in the early rounds...not enough chips to justify diluting your stack yet.

Cleveland Guy
07-29-2004, 04:38 PM
[ QUOTE ]

Also...there's no point to stealing the blinds with less than optimal hands in the early rounds...not enough chips to justify diluting your stack yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure I always agree with this one. If it's just the blinds yes - but if I'm in a LP, or on the button, and its a BB of t30. If 5 or 6 people have limped, I can make a nice bet of like 200 and usually take down the pot right there. Maybe I'm wrong but it seems to work more often than not.

Now, before I get flamed. I usualy do this with at least a fairly decent hand - so that if i get called, I can at least make some decent outs. If I get re-raised it's usually a fold.

gergery
07-29-2004, 04:42 PM
I think you need all 6 of these to be considered good.

1. Reading other players
2. Patience/Discipline
3. Adjusting to …well, everything. Players, stack size mainly.
4. Selective Aggressiveness
5. Being able to fold well
6. Reasonable math skills ( percentages, outs, etc.)

eMarkM
07-29-2004, 05:39 PM
Characteristics change as the game progresses. I made similar comments in Strasser's HH thread:

Early: Patience
Middle: Knowing when to change gears
Bubble: Recognizing exploitable situations
In the Money: Maintaining aggression
In the Money: Winning coin flips /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Dominic
07-29-2004, 06:15 PM
I agree that it's worth a shot to pick up the blinds AND a few limpers...my point is, it's usually not worth stealing JUST the blinds in the early going...

As for usually having a decent hand when you attempt this...I gotta say if I'm going to try and pick up the 5 limpers and the blinds, I'd rather have a monster or nothing at all. At least with 6-4os I can fold very easily if I'm played with! I hate raising with something like K-10, getting 2 callers and having a flop come Q-10-5 or something. Now I have to at least look at the flop...and it could be costly.

Steal with 7-3! Not A-J! If someone comes over the top of you you have to fold either one, right? I'd rather fold the 7-2 then wish I had limped with AJ and seen a flop...

/images/graemlins/wink.gif

J.A.Sucker
07-30-2004, 01:06 PM
Here's something to think about: the types of hands that you do this with are exactly the worst possible hands to play against a caller in a raised pot. These are bad hands because they are second best hands, and thus "go-broke" hands, since you can't get away from them if you flop anything. Best off making this play with nothing - play 73o here the same way. That said, if you're playing small buy-in SNG's, KJ may be a better "premium" hand than your opposition, but I doubt it's that good.

nothumb
07-30-2004, 01:28 PM
I think it's crucial to notice which players steal and which don't. It's easy because the thieves often get your blinds in the early-middle rounds before you switch gears.

You have to notice that they steal your blinds, but not want revenge. You have to notice who thinks you are a thief or a rock as well. This is the big difference going into the bubble IMHO - recognizing who can be run over and who can't, and who is trying to attack you and who is trying to double up.

Getting to the bubble is easy. The difference between blinding out with a short stack and making the money is often a read or two.

NT

Cleveland Guy
07-30-2004, 01:36 PM
I don't think I'm as far off as I might have sounded in my post.

My favorite "steal" hands are like suited- connectors. Let's say I have 89 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

It's a hand if I'm called I'll either hit beautifully on the flop - or not at all.

And yes I can throw away a board with 3-6-9 to a siginficant post flop bet.

kevyk
07-30-2004, 01:41 PM
I think I'm going to have to disagree with all of you about making this play. I am never going to attempt this with 72o. You will get called sometimes, and you don't want to have to automatically throw away your money if that happens.

But I don't make this move with something like KJ, which will probably make you one pair at best and is often second-best even when it hits.

I make this raise with medium pairs and suited connectors. The pair is usually the best hand when someone flat calls; you can make a judgement on the flop as to whether this is still true. The suited connector is perfect for this situation because there are a lot of ways to turn something with it that will beat a one-pair type of hand (i.e. a small-medium pair, KJ, etc.), and you can get away from it if you miss. Plus, you are playing deceptively.

Also, it's key not to overdo this play.

Martin Aigner
07-30-2004, 02:02 PM
3 Things

Patience
Playing the players
Playing the situations

Best regards

Martin Aigner

Martin Aigner
07-30-2004, 02:05 PM
LOL Winning coinflips

But why only in the money. I tend tp lose about 80% of them and would love to win them in and out of the money

Best regards

Martin Aigner

Benholio
07-30-2004, 02:52 PM
'Only in the money' because you shouldn't be getting into coinflips in the early stages if you can help it.

J.A.Sucker
07-30-2004, 03:00 PM
Trust me, you're wrong.

BrettK
07-30-2004, 03:29 PM
[ QUOTE ]
At least with 6-4os I can fold very easily if I'm played with! I hate raising with something like K-10, getting 2 callers and having a flop come Q-10-5 or something. Now I have to at least look at the flop...and it could be costly.

Steal with 7-3! Not A-J! If someone comes over the top of you you have to fold either one, right? I'd rather fold the 7-2 then wish I had limped with AJ and seen a flop...

[/ QUOTE ]

This is utter nonsense. If you'd rather play with 72 than AJ because you don't trust yourself on the flop, try to improve your ability to lay down losing hands.

Brett

Martin Aigner
07-30-2004, 03:47 PM
Agree with early stages, but when the blinds are higher (about 100-200 and up) you simply canīt avoid 50/50 confrontations. At least I canīt, although I guess in about 80% of the times Iīm the raiser and often get called by something like 33.

Best regards

Martin Aigner

StickyWicket
07-30-2004, 04:02 PM
Just another perspective on SNG strategy and the reponses in this thread.

Look at it this way:

1) you can attempt a steal with complete crap (the referenced 7-3os)...if you get played with for a smooth call, you either hit big or you dump the hand when paint hits. Either way, you're playing big or folding straight-out.

2) Attempt a late-position raise/steal attempt with that AJ and hit the flop with an A. Now, how did you REALLY hit the flop? You're in "Top Pair, Good Kicker" land, and what do you do if you get played with big time? You're gonna have the nit who limped from up front with AQ, AK, or a small pp every now and them...

It's all a matter of reading your table. If you know you can make the steal from LP because of who you're playing with, it doesn't matter what you raise with. However, if you're at a table where the you've seen early position limpers call raises consistently, maybe you should consider the steal attempt with a hand with some outs (perhaps a few more than the 7-3os....). /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

No shame in laying down a loser, but it's also no good to perpetuate the bluff if you're getting played with by someone who DID hit his/her hand /images/graemlins/smile.gif

THAT'S what's going to put you in the money consistently ---making the occasional laydown you hate to make and making the occasional play against the better hand and getting him to lay it down...(then again, none of this applies in no-fold 'em hold 'em...hit the flop or get the hell out!)

JMHO...

Sticky /images/graemlins/heart.gif

kevyk
07-30-2004, 06:22 PM
Yeah, you're right. Leaving yourself outs is a really stupid thing to do.

Aloysius
07-30-2004, 06:43 PM
I play more Multi-Table Tournaments (live, not online as much)... but I think the concepts are still important.

Dominic mentions not playing hands like K-10, K-J etc. early in a tournament as they are utter trash. I think that without any qualifiers to that, I'd have to disagree.

In late position, with a lot of limpers, no raises, and early in a tournament (where the blind structure is not too onerous and the price is pretty cheap with great overlay)... why wouldn't you limp with hands like that, or with a hand like K-Q, maybe throw in a raise?

Maybe I'm too loose, but in an unraised pot with lots of limpers, I'd play a very wide range of hands in late position. I understand that K-10 is easily dominated, but in an unraised pot K-10 is often the best hand on say a K-9-5 flop.

Dominic
07-30-2004, 07:53 PM
Okay, goofball..go back and re-read the post...I never said I'd rather have 7-2 over AJ...I said that if I was going to attempt to steal the blinds, antes and a couple of early limpers, I'd rather do it with 7-2 than AJ - because with 7-2 I can very easily get away from the hand if called or re-raised, whereas, with AJ, if I get a call and it comes A-blank-blank, I could be in very serious trouble: what do you do when the limper who called your raise fires a pot-sized bet on that flop? You're probably beat but you may be tempted to call or raise here anyway, right?

And as for what I said being nonsense, I was just paraphrasing Sklansky in his Tournament Poker book.

So there. Nyaa nyaa nyaa. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Dominic
07-30-2004, 07:56 PM
well-said...my point exactly but maybe I didn't get it across as well...

and the 7-3 vs. AJ comparision was just one of exaggeration...If I'm in blind stealing mode, I'm probably doing it with something like 89suited than 7-3! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Dominic
07-30-2004, 08:18 PM
I think in certain instances, you're right...it's okay to limp with those type of hands...K10, KJ, etc...in late position and an unraised pot...but what are you getting out of it? Most everyone would probably agree that if you're in the CO or the BB with KJ and it's been folded around to you, it's better to raise than call, right? By not raising with it you are leaving yourself open to a "big-blind special" kind of flop where you could either win a small pot or lose a large one.

But what happens when you do raise with KJ on the button and you get called by the BB? The flop comes K blank blank. The BB fires a pot-sized bet out at you. Now what do you do?

My whole point is that trying to steal the blinds is an exercise where you do NOT want callers, right? So you're trying to win without a flop...if you get a flop I just think you should be willing to let it go if you get any pressure because if you do, you're probably beat.

I think one important concept of tournament poker is keeping yourself away from big decisions like, "should I call that pot-sized bet with KJ when there's a King-high flop?"

One way I avoid these decisions is very rarely playing hands like KJ, Q10, etc. It's just not worth it.

And let me emphasize one more time: I am only talking about when you are in the early rounds - stealing blinds at a $5 and $10 blind level is a case of diminishing returns. If you make a 4X the blind bet you're going to have to win this steal 4 times out of 5 in order to increase your stack any appreciable amount. Once again, it just ain't worth it.

Naturally, the later in the tourament it is, the higher in value hands like KJ become and THEN they can become powerful post-flop cards.

Dominic
07-30-2004, 08:21 PM
I agree with you completely...I'd much rather make this move with 88 or 9-10s than KJ OR 72...

I was just making a point about 72 being an easier bluffing hand to play than KJ. I'm not actually recommending running out to your local casino and raising with 7-2 in late poistion every chance you get. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Jsb
07-30-2004, 09:06 PM
being open to, and willing to, change.

J.A.Sucker
07-30-2004, 11:13 PM
The key to all of these moves is not to do ANYTHING every chance you get, because people catch on pretty quickly. They only work because you are otherwise playing very tightly.

As for outs, they really don't matter; you're trying to win there, and usually if called, you're done with the hand, unless you're playing morons. Also, 73o or whatever crap you have does have "outs" - you may fire on the same flops that you would with AK or the like, and you may be lucky. The last thing you want to do in a tournament is to leave yourself compelled to call some chips that you would rather not on a draw. In a live game, there may be merits to doing it with outs, because the money is so much deeper and you can rebuy. The only thing worse than this is flopping top pair with KT, firing out, getting action, and having to run it, hoping you're best.

J.A.Sucker
07-30-2004, 11:16 PM
What are these outs you're thinking about? I'm serious. Suppose you have KT and you're in a tournament and flop top pair. Unless the money is pretty deep, you can't get away from it. With nothing, then you can fire at the K-hi flop just the same and be done with the hand. Plus, any hand has some intrinsic value to it, however small it seems. I know it sounds silly, but I'm not kidding.

BrettK
07-31-2004, 09:36 AM
His point is fairly simple. Stealing with worse hands cannot, by definition, be better than stealing with better hands, unless you play flops grossly incorrectly. Let's take AJo and 72o again. Even if you only play the AJo on the flop as long as you have at least TPTK, you're in much better shape than with the 72o, which can't achieve TPTK. Of course 72o has outs. His point is that AJo has *more* outs.

Brett

By the way, would someone tell me where Sklansky says that stealing with 72o is better than stealing with AJo in TPFAP, as stated in an earlier post? A page number would be great. He *might* have said that it's better if you can't trust yourself on the flop, but to say that it's simply a better hand to steal with is nonsense, through and through.

BrettK
07-31-2004, 09:46 AM
- Patience
- Versatility
- Consistency

Brett

Desdia72
07-31-2004, 10:27 AM
to the river. in my last 17 SNGs, i've gotten 2nd place "7" times with 3 of those 2nds coming with rundowns on the river holding the best hand preflop. out of (4) 4th place finishes, i've gotten rivered 3 times with the best hand preflop. i got rivered one time in 6th place. so i've had my big hands rivered 7 times out of my last 17 SNGs (41%) which have had a profound effect not only on where i placed but my ROI as well.

*sidenote: big hands like AK vs A 8, A K vs A J, A A vs
7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A K vs A Q has also went down in flames both ITM and on the bubble contributing big also to placing and ROI*

stripsqueez
07-31-2004, 10:39 AM
SNG's are more like gambling than playing cards - A8s is an auto muck early and gold late - my perspective of a winning players strength is a capacity to constantly re-evaluate and place their cards into the bigger picture

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

Desdia72
07-31-2004, 10:55 AM
[ QUOTE ]
SNG's are more like gambling than playing cards - A8s is an auto muck early and gold late - my perspective of a winning players strength is a capacity to constantly re-evaluate and place their cards into the bigger picture

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[/ QUOTE ]

but whether down to 4-handed (the bubble) or even headsup, A K is a big favorite over A 8 in the big picture. i just happened to lose against A 8 on the river in 4th this time, but if i had to play it again with A K on the bubble, it's an automatic push (besides i was the shortstack anyway). SNGs are only a gamble if you play them as if their a gamble. people who consistently
place nice %s ITM and who have good ROIs are'nt gamblers, their good poker players. when you say gamble, then you start to harp on the luck factor which is a short term thing. the good SNG players in this forum, for the most part, win with skill (and benefit from some luck- "who does'nt?").

citanul
07-31-2004, 04:06 PM
That isn't what he or the poster (I think) said:

EDIT: The play being discussed is, I believe, Illustrative Play No 3, pages 90-92.

In TPFAP (looking for page) the statement is that the specific steal form in which several/many players have entered a pot unraised/cheap and you decide to make a decent sized raise to try to take down the pot right there, is better made with a hand like 72o than AJ.

Not, when trying to steal the blinds, 72o is better than AJ, although I'm feeling that there are arguments on either side here as well.

citanul

Dominic
07-31-2004, 04:34 PM
Okay, once again...we are not talking about PLAYING 7-2 vs. AJ!! Were talking about trying to steal the blinds and antes! Of course you want AJ more than 7-2 if you're actually playing the damn hand....the point is when you're only trying to steal blinds uncontested you're much better off with a hand you can easily get away from. Period. that's it.

It ain't that difficult a concept, people.

Dominic
07-31-2004, 04:37 PM
exactly! Thank you for the page reference, now don't have to look it up myself. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

It's a simple example on trying to take the pot down right there and NOT playing a flop...

I would never want to play an un-raised pot with 7-2 more than AJ...that wasn't the argument.

stupidsucker
07-31-2004, 04:46 PM
The idea for this thread actually wasnt a bad one. It has become something it is not supposed to be, and now this thread is retarded IMNSHO.

Here are a few to add

1) Do not complain about getting 50% ITM because you were 75% ITM at one time
2) Do not fall prey to conspiracy theories (Something I have tilted on myself)
3)When you ask for advice, consider taking it from good sources opposed to arguing why they are wrong.

BrettK
07-31-2004, 09:52 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Okay, once again...we are not talking about PLAYING 7-2 vs. AJ!! Were talking about trying to steal the blinds and antes! Of course you want AJ more than 7-2 if you're actually playing the damn hand....the point is when you're only trying to steal blinds uncontested you're much better off with a hand you can easily get away from. Period. that's it.

It ain't that difficult a concept, people.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the reference, Citanul. These types of comments are what I was referring to.
Dominic, in this post you said contradictory things, in my opinion. You said first that you're not talking about actually playing the hand, and then said that you were talking about being able to get away from a hand. This minor point doesn't really matter, because I'm still wondering why you think 72 is a better stealing hand than AJ. I've explained that if you get called, AJ has many more flop outs than 72, and I'm not catching the counter-point. Sorry if I'm missing something simple. It's relatively obvious that when you're stealing you don't want a call, but if you can have a better hand for the times that you *do* get called, why shouldn't you?

Brett

Gramps
07-31-2004, 10:11 PM
I think the point is they're "more like" gambling, not that they're pure gambling. Some profitable investors focus on mutual funds, others on options trading. Some profitable poker players focus on limit side games, others on NL SNGs.

[ QUOTE ]
my perspective of a winning players strength is a capacity to constantly re-evaluate and place their cards into the bigger picture

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the above statement is right on.

Desdia72
07-31-2004, 11:28 PM
[ QUOTE ]
The idea for this thread actually wasnt a bad one. It has become something it is not supposed to be, and now this thread is retarded IMNSHO.

Here are a few to add

1) Do not complain about getting 50% ITM because you were 75% ITM at one time
2) Do not fall prey to conspiracy theories (Something I have tilted on myself)
3)When you ask for advice, consider taking it from good sources opposed to arguing why they are wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) complained about 50% ITM
2) blamed Pokerstars or online poker for my beats or
3) asked anyone for advice and then argued with them why they were wrong.

if you're gonna post something off in such a matter factly, ballistic fashion...make sure what you're saying is correct.

Desdia72
07-31-2004, 11:31 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I think the point is they're "more like" gambling, not that they're pure gambling. Some profitable investors focus on mutual funds, others on options trading. Some profitable poker players focus on limit side games, others on NL SNGs.

[ QUOTE ]
my perspective of a winning players strength is a capacity to constantly re-evaluate and place their cards into the bigger picture

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the above statement is right on.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm don't have a problem with that point.

Dominic
08-01-2004, 01:18 AM
Okay Brett, I think I understand where you're coming from now....and I'll try to explain why it's *USUALLY* better to have a garbage hand than AJ, KJ, Q10 or any of these type of hands when you're attempting a blind steal.

Say you have Q10 in the CO...everyone folds around to you...you raise it a reasonable amount instead of limping...say, 3x or 4x the BB.

You've got a few scenarios that can happen now:

1: the three remaining players fold and you pick up the blinds.

2. Someone re-raises you.

3. One or more players calls your raise.

I assume if #2 happens, you fold your Q-10 (or even AJ or AQ). So let's concentrate on #3 - you get a caller.

Now, if you hit the flop hard - top two pair, a set, you're probably golden, right? But wait just a minute! Even if the flop comes Q-10-blank, you still could be way behind...the guy who called you could have pocket 10s or pocket Qs, so you have to play even this strong of a flop cautiously...you probably have the best hand, but you certainly can't risk a large chunk of your stack to find out. You bet this flop, get re-raised, now what do you do?

Same thing if the flop comes 10 or Q high. You fire a mini-bet at the pot and get a call, you don't know where you stand...you fire a pot-sized bet at the pot, get a call or get re-raised and I guarantee you you're behind.

If you miss the flop, you're probably out of the hand or you pick up a very small pot at the end.

So this is where we stand: No matter what happens once we raise with this kind of hand, we're either going to pick up a small pot or lose a big one.

If you had tried picking up the blinds with a garbage hand like 6-4os instead and you got a call or a raise, you're probably done with the hand right there WITHOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF LOSING ANYMORE CHIPS because you caught a piece of the flop.

Remember, the whole point of raising pre-flop in this situation was to pick up the blinds without a fight, right? That's why you raise. You're certainly not raising for value with Q-10, KJ, etc., right?

Now...if you WANT to play Q-10 after the flop you shouldn't raise it! This will not be a popular statement, I'm sure, but I'll tell you why:

Say you call your Q-10 in the CO...the SB and BB come along fo the ride...now if you hit the flop strong (2 pair, a set) you can be pretty sure you have the best hand, and in the case of a set, you may even have someone dominated with a weaker set since if they had a stronger Q or 10 they probably would've raised with it pre-flop.

And if you hit a Q high or a 10 high, the same domination probably applies if someone else hit top pair...the only thing you have to worry about is if someone hit a "big blind special" and hit their 2-pair with something like Q-6. Something to watch out for, sure, but you can't play THAT cautiously, right?

This is why with hands like K-10, etc...I limp if I'm going to play the hand at all...and if I'm going to steal the blinds - which I will attempt to do in the right situation with ANY hand - I will know where I stand a lot clearer with 7-3os than I will with A-10, KJ, etc. *IF* I get a call.

Now please let me reiterate that I do not EVER want to play 7-3os more than I do AJ...except in in a straight blind-stealing situation WHEN I GET A CALL.

The whole purpose of this strategy is to AVOID A BIG DECISION. You get called with 7-3os you're gonna fold if the flop comes with just about anything except 7-7-3. You get called with KJ, suddenly you're going to have a big decision to make if you hit your hand.

Of course, if you do hit your K or J and the other guy misses, you still pick up the pot...which now includes his call of your raise - not a bad thing...but not something you want to rely on time and time again in a tournament.

Anyway, there's my long-winded explanation...if you don't understand it this time guess I suck at writing.

Good luck! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

stripsqueez
08-01-2004, 06:57 AM
i'm named after a strip squeeze

i'm on the record about the words gambling and luck but feel the need to repeat in response

definitions of gambling differ - as it happens i have done some research on the topic for the purposes of my more usual job - historically "gambling" is limited to games of chance and poker is plainly not a game of chance - please no-one reply with the view that its luck and chance - games of chance and games of skill are mutually exclusive concepts - i adopt the common usage of the word - i'm risking something to win something - i love to gamble and not just for money

i never wish people luck - the only time i ever use the word it is in a disparaging context - this stems from one of my first regular live games - the host was a very good player but utterly ruthless about taking money from crap players - at the end of the evening he would often console the big donator with the words "dont worry about it - your a good player out of luck" - late in our relationship he would sometimes catch my eye at this point and wink

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

BrettK
08-01-2004, 04:20 PM
Now I see what the problem is. We're saying the same thing, but saying it differently. You're saying, "It's easier to lay down." I'm saying, "You don't trust your level of discipline on the flop."

I'll try to write this as clearly as possible, using the same format that you used, but using AJ and 72 instead of QT and 72, because the example is far more clear.

One of three things will happen when you raise to steal:
1- You are called.
2- You are reraised.
3- You win the blinds.

Since neither AJ nor 72 is a hand that you'd call a reraise with and since winning the blinds needs no explanation, we'll ignore numbers 2 and 3.

With 72, these are the flops you love:
- 777
- 222
- 772
- 722
- 72x
You discussed being unsure of a two pair hand, but we'll ignore that, because if you're ever laying down two pair against one opponent for fear of trips without a very very very good read, you're making a horrible move.
I think we agree that you fold if anything else flops.

With AJ, these are the flops you love:
-AAA
-JJJ
-AAJ
-AJJ
-AJx
-Jxx(where x equals T or less)
Since you don't trust yourself on an ace high flop, we're saying you'd fold in that situation. I would do the same thing. However, look at the difference. After completely discarding ace high flops, we still have one more type of flop that we consider excellent with AJ than we do with 72. Is my point very clear now? I hope so. As long as you go into an attempted steal with a plan and with the discipline to lay down after bad flops, you're always better off with AJ than with 72.

Brett

kevyk
08-01-2004, 04:47 PM
Did you read my post? I advocated making this play with a suited connector, not KJ or something. In other words, a hand which is nothing if you don't flop to it. My only point is that you should still have some outs when someone calls you.

Peter Harris
08-01-2004, 04:58 PM
remembering the variability of the game, the only answer to all poker questions is "it depends".

value betting! the one thing i am still working on.

Dominic
08-01-2004, 06:57 PM
I like what you're and if you have that discipline, great...I like to think I do, as well...my whole point was avoiding situations where you have a coin flip decision for a large part of your stack, that's all.

So we're defintely on the same page, I think...

good luck!