Keep jamming TPTK? (Party $3/6)

[colgin]

I just "sat" down at this table and it is my second orbit so no real reads.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (8.33 SB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, MP1 calls, <font color="CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero caps</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (10.16 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

River: (19.16 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero calls, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 21.16 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 21.16 BB, between MP2 and Hero.</font>

Comments?

[jt1]

Your HU. Why 3 bet the turn? More than 50% of the time he has you beat here.

[Joe Tall]

I play the flop the same.

But look at MP1 on the flop, call 2 cold, call 2 cold, if he's on the flush draw, what do you put MP2 on?

Not that rasing the turn here is going to be a mistake too often but MP2 betting out into such aggression, gives me a reason to lay off. I'd expect to see a set here and I'd likey call down. As TPTK online is going to still be good if he has a hand like KQ and is party-playing it.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
Your HU. Why 3 bet the turn? More than 50% of the time he has you beat here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did not three-bet the turn. I raised the turn and I can explain my reasons after others have had a chance to comment. One of my oppponents, MP2, three-bet the turn and then I just called.

[Joe Tall]

Your HU

We've all done it but take your time and read the post again. I think MP1's actions are clear that he's on a flush draw and MP2 has a bigger hand.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Haupt_234]

I call down after it is capped. I play Party and all, but it isn't often where I find I am ahead in your situation. Only to a ridiculously aggressive opponent...

Haupt_234

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
Not that rasing the turn here is going to be a mistake too often but MP2 betting out into such aggression, gives me a reason to lay off. I'd expect to see a set here and I'd likey call down. As TPTK online is going to still be good if he has a hand like KQ and is party-playing it.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I don't like my turn raise very much here. My thought was to try to knock out MP1 and if I was behind to only two pair hopefully be able to take a "free" showdown. However, if MP1 is on a flush draw, which it sure looks like, he is not going anywhere and rightly so. Also, I open myself up to a three-net from MP2 who is starting to act like he has a set. I thought that there was some possibility that MP2 was also on a draw but that possibility seemed pretty remote give his level of aggression here.

Of course, my plan did not work as MP1 called and MP2 three-bet. Now of course I am just calling down assuming that a spade does not fall. If it does I am folding to a bet by MP1 followed by either a call or raise from MP2.

[Mucking Idiot]

I think i play it same way if I don't have any reads.

I like the raise on the turn, after all, this is gambling. You might have an option at free river and you really make the draw pay. He three bets, you are really screwed...but if you are going to lay down now is the time and that's a tough laydown.

[Joe Tall]

My thought was to try to knock out MP1

Really? After all that heat on the flop that MP1 took, I don't see him gonig anywhere as he's holding 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gifs.

If it does I am folding to a bet by MP1 followed by either a call or raise from MP2.

Most definatley so.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[turnipmonster]

the only reason I can think of for raising the turn is to try and get MP1 to fold a flush draw, which he is not going to do especially since he is getting odds to call.

so my question is, who is making money in this hand? according to izmet, the best draw is making some (mostly due to the dead money and future action) and the best hand is making some. since you can't lay bad enough odds to make the flush draw fold, and probably have no redraws on the turn, I think you are better off calling down than trying to drive out a strong draw.

--turnipmonster

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
My thought was to try to knock out MP1


Really? After all that heat on the flop that MP1 took, I don't see him gonig anywhere as he's holding 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gifs.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. As I said above I don't like my raise here; it was a mistake. I did not immediately put MP1 on the flush draw he obviously had. As soon as I hit the raise button I realized he was not going anywhere. I then just hoped for the best.

[colgin]

MP2 had K /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/spade.gif and, to my surprise, MHIG. I have to assume that MP1 mucked a flush draw that did not get there. I think most of you correctly questioned my turn raise and I agree that it does not accomplish anything here as in most cases I would expect to be behind on the turn.

Thanks again.

Colgin

[Luke]

I'D prefer to call the flop 3-bet and then raise the turn.

Yes, there's a good chance MP1 is on a flush draw, but this pot is pretty big now and I'd like to maximize my chances to win it and cause the MP1 to make a big mistake or a correct fold (which we don't mind either).

Capping the flop doesn't increase my chances to win the hand one bit and it looks more and more like I'm putting money into the pot with less and less pot equity.

Luke

[Mucking Idiot]

Hey, sometimes even a mucking idiot gets lucky.

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey, sometimes even a mucking idiot gets lucky.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[bilbo-san]

[ QUOTE ]
MP2 had K /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/spade.gif and, to my surprise, MHIG. I have to assume that MP1 mucked a flush draw that did not get there. I think most of you correctly questioned my turn raise and I agree that it does not accomplish anything here as in most cases I would expect to be behind on the turn.

Thanks again.

Colgin

[/ QUOTE ]

K/images/graemlins/spade.gifT/images/graemlins/spade.gif. WOW, that is spectacularly bad post-flop play, make a note on that guy and add him to your buddy list! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

That's the kind of thing that makes me feel like a fish sometimes, though, because vs. an unknown opponent on Party I *often* find myself calling down someone who I'm "sure" must have a set. And, of course, 2/3 of the time I'm right. But that other 1/3 of the time I'm always just amazed at the crap they 3-bet with...

[AceHigh]

I like the turn raise if you can fold to a 3-bet and get a free showdown. That way you get to charge the draw extra.

Since you have no reads, I don't like it as much.

[Mucking Idiot]

Is it really that hard to assume a player is capping a flush draw(which wouldnt be a bad cap if it was nut draw(..A2s, A3s, A4s....)) on the flop with 2 callers.

...or to assume he has kq(maybe even qj),
kj(again not too bad of a cap),
j9,
j9 spds(good enough flop cap and not so bad to come out with on turn),
kj spds(good enough flop cap and not so bad to come out with on the turn),

Am I just crazy or is there alot of legitimate hands/plays that our hero could beat?

Ok pay attention!! this next one is a big one.....Is it hard to assume someone playing 3/6 at party would ever get way out of line and overbet his hand? How about a little out of line as in above assumptions?

Is it hard to assume my raise on turn might get me a free river, should i be up against 2 pair?

The cold caller, NO CHEAP DRAWS. If he is slow playing the two of us...nice hit.

Aggresive, yup...too aggressive???

If a raise on the turn sounds outrageous here, maybe your fear is too calculated rather than instinctual.

If a raise on the turn sounds too crazy stupid aggresive, maybe you should let your little sister play your button for you! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif