Where is the outrage?

[ACPlayer]

To: Those who believe that we should send troops to protect men, women and children from thugs:

Subj: Families burnt alive (http://news.independent.co.uk/world/africa/story.jsp?story=545741)

Memo

Please write to your president urging the sending of the US Marines, Air Force, and Reservists to save these people from their brethren. We can do it!

[Gamblor]

Arabs were "outraged" over the humiliation of Iraqi prisoners at the hands of a handful of American service men.

Arabs are "outraged" at American intervention in the brutal dictatorial regime of Saddam Hussein.

Where was this this "outrage" when necrophiliac Arabs in Fallujah mutilated four American soldiers by stepping on their burnt skulls and hung their burnt bodies from a bridge?

Where was this this "outrage" when "Palestinians" mutilated and dragged the bodies of two IDF soldiers in Ramallah?

Where was this this "outrage" when 19 Arabs blew up the World TradeCenter and the Pentagon on 9/11/01?

Where was this this "outrage" when Arabs slaughtered and continue to slaughter non-Arab Sudanese?

Where was this this "outrage" when Arabs blew up Pan Am flight 103?

Where was this this "outrage" when Arabs bombed the marine barracks in Lebanon killing 241 Americans in 1983?

Where was this this "outrage" when Arabs bombed the USS COLE?

Where was this this "outrage" when Arabs bombed the American Embassy in Africa killing 231 people?

Where was this this "outrage" when Abu Mazen (Mahmoud Abbas)engineered the "Black September" terror attack during the Munich Olympics, which killed 11 Israeli athletes and a US citizen?

Where was this this "outrage" when Abu Abbas threw the wheelchair-bound Leon Klinghoffer overboard on the Achille Lauro?

Where was this this "outrage" when "Palestinian" rioters torched the Jewish holy site of Joseph's Tomb?

Where was this this "outrage" when the Taliban blew up the Buddhist statues in Afghanistan?

Where was this this "outrage" when simultaneous blasts rocked two of downtown Istanbul's synagogues killing at least 15 people and wounding at least 140?

Where was this this "outrage" when "Palestinians" handed out candy celebrating the deaths of 3000 Americans on 9-11-01?

Where was this this "outrage" when Jemaah Islamiyah suicide bombers killed 12 people and injured 150 at the J.W. Marriott in Jakarta, Indonesia?

Where was this this "outrage" when bomb attacks in Morocco killed at least 28 people and injured more than 100?

Where was this this "outrage" when suicide bombers killed 12 people at an Israeli-owned beach hotel in Kenya and two missiles narrowly miss an airliner carrying Israelis?

Where was this this "outrage" when nearly 200 people, including seven Americans, were killed in bombings in a nightclub district of the Indonesian Island of Bali?

Where was this this "outrage" when 300,000 Iraqi's bodies were found in mass graves in Iraq?

Where was this this "outrage" when a mother and her four children all under age 12, were shot in the head at short range, just over a week ago?

I'm waiting for these "outraged" Arabs to grow the balls to condemn their own ethnic co-religionists for the hideous crimes they have committed against others.

Then I'll shed a tear for their innocents.

[nicky g]

"Where was this this "outrage" when a mother and her four children all under age 12, were shot in the head at short range, just over a week ago ? "

I take it you;ve cut and pasted this from one fo your propaganda sites, given that his actually happened over two months ago?

[adios]

I'm waiting for these "outraged" Arabs to grow the balls to condemn their own ethnic co-religionists for the hideous crimes they have committed against others.

FWIW IMO the pan-arab mindset needs to embrace the word "accountabile." Flame away.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Why do resist acknowledging the long history of Arab violence and brutality towards Jews specifically and the west in general?

And don't say its propaganda or trumped up. If anything, Gamblor *understates* the problem.

[nicky g]

I do acknowlege a history of certain Arab groups treating others badly. I also acknowlege the history of Israeli and "Western brutality towards Arabs and Muslims (which the list shamelessly conflates as a single thing - if a Muslim group in Indonesia blows up a hotel, all the people in Morrocco should of course be out on the street denouncing it; if the Taliban blow up statues in Afghanistan, the Lebanese govenrment should immediately put forward a UN resolution condemning it), which this absurdly propagandistic and one-sided list doesn't. Furthermore the list is about condemnation, not the acts, and ignores the fact that many Arab governments, peoples and so on have condemned many of the things in it.

My main point was about him posting stuff from other sites without acknowledging it (unless he wrote this himself two months ago).

[Utah]

I believe this should be taken up with the Human Rights Council of the UN.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I don't usually get involved in this debate since it makes my blood boil.

You make it sound like there's some sort of balance between Arab violence against Jews and their friends and non-retaliatory Jewish(and western) violence against Arabs. That is blatantly untrue. Thus I will support the US standing against the rest of the world on this issue until the rest of the world stops trying to paint the Jews as aggressors.

As far as I'm concerned any nation that refuses to accept that the arab world is 99% responsible for the violence in the middle east is a mortal enemy of the US *and* of civilization.

Flame away (not just you, nicky). Since nothing anybody can say will change my mind on this, I see no reason to discuss this topic any further.

[nicky g]

"As far as I'm concerned any nation that refuses to accept that the arab world is 99% responsible for the violence in the middle east is a mortal enemy of the US *and* of civilization."

That would be every single nation other than Israel. It probably includes the US itself.


"Since nothing anybody can say will change my mind on this, I see no reason to discuss this topic any further. "

Indeed.

[Cyrus]

"IMO the pan-arab mindset needs to embrace the word "accountabile." Flame away."

I'm not sure if you want the Arab League to pay tribute to "la dona e mobile" (sotto voce) or to honor bile.

/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Cyrus]

"You make it sound like there's some sort of balance between Arab violence against Jews and their friends and non-retaliatory Jewish (and western) violence against Arabs."

You are absolutely, a hundred percent correct! The balance is so heavily tipped towards Israel as being without a doubt the world champion of killing Arabs and Palestinians (plus invading ALL its neighbors; plus harboring Weapons of Mass Destruction; plus, defying the whole world!) that the balance is touching the ground! There is simply no contest!

Sources to be provided upon request.

"As far as I'm concerned any nation that refuses to accept that the arab world is 99% responsible for the violence in the middle east is a mortal enemy of the US *and* of civilization."

Hmmm. What about individuals? I am not a nation but I do hold the above belief to be true and accurate. I happen to believe, on the basis of logic more than anything else, that responsibility should be weighed according to power (i.e. ability). In other words, the strongest party in a transaction usually has the power over it. In the Middle East, Israel has always been vastly stronger militarily than all the Arab armies combined. Plus, it enjoyed complete impunity for whatever the hell it chose to do. For fifty reas and counting. So, whence responsibility?

You should realize that, as History shows, Israel has always won more in war than it was threatened to lose by peace. I ask you: Why a reasonable Israeli would really want peace? Why would he not prefer to have to face bin Laden (or Hamas or Hezbollah) rather than reasonable moderates?

Give it some thought before you report me to Homeland Security.

[Gamblor]

I wrote this as a post (in MS Word) back when Abu Ghraib was all the rage, but neglected to post it... until I found it cleaing my hard drive and waited for an opportune moment to unleash it upon ye hordes.

[nicky g]

Ok. The reference seemed odd. I apologise.

[daveymck]

So you would rather lower yourself to their level of hate and lack of human compassion.

A childs death is a childs death whatever creed colour or religion it it bigots like you and the ones on the arab side who cause all the religious problems in the world in the first place.

[Gamblor]

The balance is so heavily tipped towards Israel as being without a doubt the world champion of killing Arabs and Palestinians (plus invading ALL its neighbors; plus harboring Weapons of Mass Destruction; plus, defying the whole world!) that the balance is touching the ground!

Let's go one round at a time, shall we?

World Champion of killing Arabs and Palestinians:

In 3 years of war with Arabs of the Territories, approximately 3000 Arabs have died. A fair number of those have been at the cause of the Zahal (the rest, as we've already discussed, are the result of in-fighting, Arafat's police squads' assassinations of dissenters, bomb-making accidents, etc.).

In one year in Iraq, upwards of 10 thousand Iraqi civilians have died. During Saddam's reign, an estimated 300,000 Arabs and Kurds were killed. Nevermind Syria's occupation of Lebanon and Sudan's current fiesta.

So to call Israel the world champion Arab killer is so beyond proportion and reason that your head must be filled with wonderful images of rotting Israeli corpses and a hundred million Arabs chanting "Itzbach al-Yahud!"

the Middle East, Israel has always been vastly stronger militarily than all the Arab armies combined.

That, my poker playing friends, is called results-oriented thinking. Perhaps nowadays this is the case, but superiority does not guarantee victory, as evidenced by 8 wonderful months in 1948 and the first few days of October, 1973. Strength is a matter of necessity, not ideology.

Israel has always won more in war than it was threatened to lose by peace.

Hmmm. Israel wins in 1967, gains the Sinai, gives it back in the context of a peace agreement - booting thousands of Jews from the Sinai (mainly the village of Yamit) in the process. Israel wins every war against states with lands totalling upwards of 100x Israel's original 1948 allocation and yet, Israel conquers miniscule amounts relative to the safe and secure borders it requires.

Of course, after those peace deals with Egypt and Jordan, all North Americans gathered around the television in hushed silence as the Israelis marched into the Sinai calling for the extermination of 100 million Egyptian Arabs.

Enjoy your Campari, it can't be worse than the 12 you've already downed today.

[Utah]

You are absolutely, a hundred percent correct! The balance is so heavily tipped towards Israel as being without a doubt the world champion of killing Arabs and Palestinians (plus invading ALL its neighbors; plus harboring Weapons of Mass Destruction; plus, defying the whole world!) that the balance is touching the ground! There is simply no contest!

Never quite understood this. Please explain further and I promise to keep an open mind. Intuitively, your comments seem impossible. This tiny nation, surrounded by a sea of muslim countries (with maybe 100 million muslims or more?) who have vowed to destroy Israel and who see Israel as the mortal enemy, whose people have been slaughtered and persecuted thrroughout history, and who are engaging an enemy that purposely targets civilians as their main method of attack are somehow the aggressors? Very interesting indeed.

Hmmm. What about individuals? I am not a nation but I do hold the above belief to be true and accurate. I happen to believe, on the basis of logic more than anything else, that responsibility should be weighed according to power (i.e. ability). In other words, the strongest party in a transaction usually has the power over it. In the Middle East, Israel has always been vastly stronger militarily than all the Arab armies combined. Plus, it enjoyed complete impunity for whatever the hell it chose to do. For fifty reas and counting. So, whence responsibility?

Somehow Israel has the resource advantage over the oil rich nations surrounding it? wow. Man, if only those poor oil rich nations could find some money to defend themselves against that tiny poor desert nation then it might be a fair fight. btw - can you believe the Israeli's superior wall building technology? Boy was that ever aggressive! How can the Israelis' sleep with themselves at night when they attack their neighbors with a wall!!

You should realize that, as History shows, Israel has always won more in war than it was threatened to lose by peace. I ask you: Why a reasonable Israeli would really want peace? Why would he not prefer to have to face bin Laden (or Hamas or Hezbollah) rather than reasonable moderates?

No kidding. Israeli's LOVE the thought of the random chance of getting blown up each day. I was talking to this Israeli guy and he was complaining how boring it was to ride buses in the US and he craved the excitement of riding buses in Israel. I even heard one Israeli lamenting that it didn't have more borders so it could have even more enemies surrounding it.

[Gamblor]

If I am not for me, then who will be?

-Hillel

Give me a break. You don't know any of them personally. You only care that someone got killed and you don't care to understand why, or you only care up until it confirms what you already believed.

Of course people die; If I were a Jew-hating Arab and my cousin died fighting the Americans, I'd certainly believe a Zionist conspiracy was operating the American government too.

But I know Arabs. I know my Arab friends and people from among my Arab enemies. It is not because they are Arab that they don't deserve sympathy, it is because the religion and historical politics of the Arab world only see blame in everyone else, especially the Jews.

But never themselves.

There's a saying; Put 10 Israelis in a room to debate politics and you'll get 11 opinions. Why? Because Israelis are capable of looking at themselves critically, and only recently have Arab academics begun to really examine and speak out against the intellectual and informational shackles they have lived in for centuries.

But the vast majority of the Arab world is completely uneducated in everything but Islam.

[Gamblor]

There is simply no contest!

Israel's main military/political decision-making body is subject to the will of the entire society of people.

Each of Israel's enemies' main military/political decision-making body is subject to the will of one man or in some cases, one family, with absolute power and thus an incentive to maintain and increase that power. This is usually accomplished by carefully guarding and disseminating "information" that would serve to maintain that power.

It is clear that one of those situations is more likely to lead to aggressive, offensive, and irrational decision-making processes.

[ThaSaltCracka]

Gamblor,
This post is dead one. America and Israel are almost always held accountable for their actions, and are almost always crticized. Arab states on the other hand are almost never held accountable, and can anyone please tell me why????
Seriously....

[Cyrus]

"Let's go one round at a time, shall we?"

I noticed your "one at a time" means skipping over most of the points (" invading ALL its neighbors; plus harboring Weapons of Mass Destruction; plus, defying the whole world!") in the process of supposedly answering another one! Funny trick.

[i]"To call Israel the world champion Arab killer is ... beyond proportion and reason."

I concede I was not perhaps too clear. Here it is, as clear as can be: Israel has killed more Arabs than Arabs have killed Israelis, in any manner or time period. I challenge you to challenge that statement. Clear enough?

Yes, it is correct that Arabs have been guilty of slaughtering other Arabs (and, most notably, Palestinians) at a rate much envied by Israel! It has been the consistent U.S. policy to undermine Arab unity ever since Ghamal Abdel Nasser appeared on the scene and started off with his scary unifying themes. The backward monarchies that have been supported by the U.S. (as "bulwarks against Communism"!) have also helped matters in that respect quite a lot.

"Strength is a matter of necessity, not ideology."

What's that crap supposed to mean? I submitted that in the Middle East, Israel has always been vastly stronger militarily than all the Arab armies combined. You are wise enough not to dispute this directly (you'd be made a fool otherwise - oh wait...). But not even your diversions will hold water. "Ideology"?! Of course there is ideology behind everything. And the ideology behind Israel being the 4th military power (and with nukes) is called Zionism.

You can have it.

"Israel wins every war against states with lands totalling upwards of 100x Israel's original 1948 allocation and yet, Israel conquers miniscule amounts relative to the safe and secure borders it requires."

One of the most beloved tricks in the arsenal of Zionists is the invocation of the map! They show the tininess of Israel as opposed to the vastness of Arab land. As if Morocco is primed to attack them!

But, again, I'm sorry to see you will not dispute my claim that Israel keeps winning land in war so it should not desire peace. Another opening to make you a fool that didn't happen. Damn.

"Enjoy your Campari."

From your "response", I gather it is Mum bubbly for ya. Cheers.

/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Cyrus]

"No kidding. Israeli's LOVE the thought of the random chance of getting blown up each day."

I have submitted the following: As History shows, Israel has always won more in war than it was threatened to lose by peace. I ask you: Why a reasonable Israeli would really want peace? What part do you dispute or not understand, please?

The fact that Israel has won more in peace than it ever lost (or is threatened to lose) in peace? That Israel has been ruled by clever and rational people? (As far as actions are concerned, at least?.) The fact that peace entails giving back land and/or sovereignty to Palestinians and/or a return to law obedience? I ask you: What would you do if you were an Israeli leader? You'd choose war (more precisely: "war") or peace?

Remember: You would have, as Israeli leader, total immunity for your actions from the big ol' US of A.

"Never quite understood this. Please explain further and I promise to keep an open mind. Intuitively, your comments seem impossible."

I promise to explain if you let me know what exactly don't you understand. That Israel has always been (yes, since 1948!) militarily stronger than all the Arab armies combined? That Israel never faced any true security threat from any neighboring country? There are a lot of issues that do not perhaps understand. One of them could be the issue of terrorism. As a leader of Israel, I would much, much rather have to deal with the likes of bin Laden than with the likes of Arafat (or more moderate Arabs). I can keep up the heat and retain my gains with the former, while I would be obliged to negotiate (and thus surrender something) with the latter.

CAVEAT : Leaders the world over do NOT think along the moral lines you implied, with your examples of buses being blown up, etc. Leaders think as states. And states have no friends, enemies or morals. They have interests. If the leader of Israel (or America or France or Egypt or Greece - maybe not Sweden) can cause the death of a thousand innocent civilians and get away with it AND by that act his country gains something - he'd do it as soon as break wind. Take that into consideration, please.

[Gamblor]

("[Israel has been] invading ALL its neighbors;

Each invasion was prefaced by 1) terrorist attacks based in the "invadee", or 2) political aggression (i.e. blockading trade routes) and military mobilization on the part of the "invadee".

plus harboring Weapons of Mass Destruction;

As long as states sworn to destroy Israel, such as Iran, do not comply with Nuclear non-Proliferation treaties, Israel can not afford to risk not having a method of deterrence. Of course, Iran signed the treaty, while Israel cannot be in violation of a treaty if it doesn't not sign it.

plus, defying the whole world!"

The whole world has a great economic incentive to maintain positive relations with the Arab states at the expense of smaller, less beneficial relationships.

It has been the consistent U.S. policy to undermine Arab unity ever since Ghamal Abdel Nasser appeared on the scene and started off with his scary unifying themes. The backward monarchies that have been supported by the U.S. (as "bulwarks against Communism"!) have also helped matters in that respect quite a lot.

Don't whine to me about American policy vis a vis the Arab states and Communism. Israel is a socialist country.

Israel has killed more Arabs than Arabs have killed Israelis, in any manner or time period.

Results-oriented thinking, and this statement holds no moral weight. If morality is defined by intent as well as results, the question is: how many Arabs has Israel tried to kill, vs. how many Israelis have the Arabs tried to kill? Let's flip the coin shall we? let's give the Arabs all the power, and turn the Jews into a disorganized smattering. I wonder how long you'd be standing in Kikar Ziyon with a couple rocks staring down the barrel of 300 million Kalashnikovs. I also wonder how long you, as a Jew subject to Arab-Islamic rule, would enjoy your freedoms.

As if Morocco is primed to attack them!

Hold the phone! Didn't you just tell me about Nasser's Arab-unity scheme? Wait... that would mean... uh oh. Israel isn't up against any individual Arab state, but the combined strength of all of the Arab states. After all, if Israel is really fighting Morocco alone, your argument would require that Israel would have long ago attacked Morocco. And Yemen. And Kuwait. No no no that can't be. Yep, that's it. Israel is up against the combined Arab armies of all of the Arab states. And even if Israel is stronger than they are combined, far be it from any ol' Arab imperialist to underestimate his enemy!

I'm sorry to see you will not dispute my claim that Israel keeps winning land in war so it should not desire peace.

Israel withdrew from Lebanon in 1998, showing that it will not sacrifice it's own soldiers' lives in an effort to control land not absolutely necessary for safe and secure borders. I submit that Arab states have not achieved their stated goal of Arabizing the entire Middle East, and as such do not desire peace.

[Gamblor]

Israel withdrew from Lebanon in 2000.

[nicky g]

"Hold the phone! Didn't you just tell me about Nasser's Arab-unity scheme? Wait... that would mean... uh oh. Israel isn't up against any individual Arab state, but the combined strength of all of the Arab states. After all, if Israel is really fighting Morocco alone, your argument would require that Israel would have long ago attacked Morocco. And Yemen. And Kuwait. No no no that can't be. Yep, that's it. Israel is up against the combined Arab armies of all of the Arab states. And even if Israel is stronger than they are combined, far be it from any ol' Arab imperialist to underestimate his enemy! "

You may have missed it, but Nasser died quite some time ago, as did the pan-Arab project, which was never seriously supported outside of Egypt and Syria. The Arab world is much less unified and homgenous than you seem to think.

"Israel withdrew from Lebanon in 1998, showing that it will not sacrifice it's own soldiers' lives in an effort to control land not absolutely necessary for safe and secure borders. "

It seems a bit much to use this an argument when you;ve repeatedly denounced teh withdrawal as inviting terrorism and leaving northern areas vulnerable to attack.

"I submit that Arab states have not achieved their stated goal of Arabizing the entire Middle East, and as such do not desire peace. "

Yes, Arab states as a block have repeatedly stated that they want to Arabise Israel, Turky, Iran and the Kurds.

[Gamblor]

You may have missed it, but Nasser died quite some time ago, as did the pan-Arab project, which was never seriously supported outside of Egypt and Syria. The Arab world is much less unified and homgenous than you seem to think.

Agreed, however they are unified and homogenous in terms of one major foreign issue. Egypt and Jordan have both benefitted from peace with Israel (with the obvious exception of the Palestinian problem), now where's the rest?

It seems a bit much to use this an argument when you;ve repeatedly denounced teh withdrawal as inviting terrorism and leaving northern areas vulnerable to attack.

I haven't denounced it, but yes, the withdrawal did invite terrorism. More importantly, the Barak government showed it would tolerate minor terrorism in giving up land it conquered - further cementing my argument that Israel is not a land-hungry state.

Yes, Arab states as a block have repeatedly stated that they want to Arabise Israel, Turky, Iran and the Kurds.

Sarcasm noted. While the Arabs don't like Turkey (Istanbul bombings), Iran (Iraq-Persian war), and the Kurds (Hussein), at least those people are Muslim. They're trash, but tolerable as long as they sit in the corner and shut up. But Jews. Oh man. Jews. Filthy animals.

[nicky g]

"Agreed, however they are unified and homogenous in terms of one major foreign issue. Egypt and Jordan have both benefitted from peace with Israel (with the obvious exception of the Palestinian problem), now where's the rest"

Your argument contradicts itself? How does the Arab world act as a block in foreign policy when Egypt and Jordan have concluded peace agreements (to the outrage of several other states) with Israel while Syria is technically at war with it, for example? You can hardly call them mere exceptions when Egypt is the most populous and arguably most influential Arab state.

"More importantly, the Barak government showed it would tolerate minor terrorism in giving up land it conquered - further cementing my argument that Israel is not a land-hungry state."

Different governments have different policies. It certainly does seem to be hungry for almost all of the land in British mandate Palestine.

[Cyrus]

Check out the text, people. It's eye opening.

Check out also the photo of Palestinian kids playing under the gaze of an IDF soldier. They are imitating a strange game the adults seem to play a lot.

In Hebron (http://www.lrb.co.uk/v26/n14/laor01_.html)

[Gamblor]

End the bombing, and Israel will ensure all the hardships end.

End the hardships, and terrorists will ensure Jewish freedom ends.

End Jewish freedom, and the bombings end.

[nicky g]

Yes, it's clearly necessary to let religious fanatics torment the people of Hebron and vandalise their property, to subject tens of thousands of people to endless occupation adn humiliation for the sake of 500 American immigrant lunatic ethnic supremacists, in the name of security.

[elwoodblues]

[ QUOTE ]
Since nothing anybody can say will change my mind on this, I see no reason to discuss this topic any further

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, as long as you've got an open mind about it...

[Gamblor]

Yes, it's clearly necessary to let religious fanatics torment the people of Hebron and vandalise their property, to subject tens of thousands of people to endless occupation adn humiliation for the sake of 500 American immigrant lunatic ethnic supremacists, in the name of security.

I won't get into the point that there is no border and never has been one delineating Palestinian from Israeli lands.

First of all, the occupation doesn't exist for Joe Palestinian. It exists for the Palestinian in the refugee camp (the Arab equivalent of an American redneck) who builds and lures people to murder for the sake of the nation. Arafat is the George Bush of the Territories, and the refugee camps are his minion religious fanatics (whether they actually support Arafat or not). At least Jewish religious fanatics act alone.

Most city-dwelling Palestinians are not involved in any sort of political agenda and simply wish to be left alone to earn a living, as do most Israelis. But if the fight is about ensuring that no Jew will ever live in Hevron or anywhere in the Territories, and as long as Arab states continue to blame Israel for all their woes, I support Israel's right to control whatever land it deems necessary for safe and secure borders. And that includes unilaterally determining fence routes.

BTW, Even Ne'ar Misparayim is hebrew for Rock Paper Scissors, meaning the whole thing is far less strategic than you'd think.

[nicky g]

"First of all, the occupation doesn't exist for Joe Palestinian. "

The checkpoints, the incursions, the wall, the bypass roads, the collapsed economy; all of these exist "only" for the supposed scum living in the refugee camps (one third of the population)?

"I support Israel's right to control whatever land it deems necessary for safe and secure borders. "

And you seriously believe that the Hebron settlement is necessary for this?

[Gamblor]

all of these exist "only" for the supposed scum living in the refugee camps (one third of the population)?

Yes. And it has been made abundantly clear.


I support Israel's right to control whatever land it deems necessary for safe and secure borders.

And you seriously believe that the Hebron settlement is necessary for this?

No, as I pointed out in the first half of that sentence, ...if the fight is about ensuring that no Jew will ever live in Hevron or anywhere in the Territories...

I believe the Hevron settlement is just a settlement. For those who wish to settle near their holy places. Unfortunately, that choice means a severe military installation to protect their lives. Of course, years of Arab terrorism has also deformed their values so much that they've decided that their only recourse is violence. And that's the true tragedy.

[nicky g]

[ QUOTE ]
all of these exist "only" for the supposed scum living in the refugee camps (one third of the population)?

Yes. And it has been made abundantly clear.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah the rest of the Palestinians are able to go about their lives as if there was no coccupation at all.

What an absolute crock.

[Gamblor]

Yeah the rest of the Palestinians are able to go about their lives as if there was no coccupation at all.

How many times have I written that curfews only come into effect when there are terror alerts, that Israelis only reoccupy towns when terror attacks are launched from there, and that hardships only increase when they are necessary to prevent the next attack or bring those who perpetrated the most recent attacks to justice?

The military occupation and Jewish towns are separate issues and are always treated as such in negotiations. Only people that don't have a basic general understanding of the conflict and what it's about aren't able to separate these.

For the 30 years before the recent intifada, cities like Nablus remained UNOCCUPIED.

[nicky g]

"For the 30 years before the recent intifada, cities like Nablus remained UNOCCUPIED."

And the lack of citizenship or any kind of meaningful legal rights, the confiscation of property and resources to build settlements, the checkpoints and delays and endless hassles travelling from one part of the territories to the next, having to use dirt tracks while illegal settlers whizz by on their roads that you as a sixth class citizen are barred from, all these were just academic political questions to your average Palestinian. They barely even noticed.

And now?

[Gamblor]

And the lack of citizenship or any kind of meaningful legal rights, the confiscation of property and resources to build settlements, the checkpoints and delays and endless hassles travelling from one part of the territories to the next, having to use dirt tracks while illegal settlers whizz by on their roads that you as a sixth class citizen are barred from, all these were just academic political questions to your average Palestinian. They barely even noticed.

Come on nicky, that's a superficial view of the conflict and you know it.

Israeli courts routinely side with Palestinian litigators against the Israeli government. Confiscation is always legally grounded in Israeli law, which is far more humane to an enemy population than virtually any other law. Checkpoints and hassles are directly due to terrorism. Palestinians have had hundreds of millions of dollars of foreign aid so dirt roads are their problem, not Israel's. And the bypass roads are just that; they bypass the constant volley of bullets aimed at Israeli cars on the normal roads.