J9s, str8 and flush draw

[RustyCJ]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="C00000">saw showdown</font>

MP2 ($8.05)
Hero ($36.20)
CO ($25)
Button ($25.90)
SB ($32.50)
BB ($40.95)
UTG ($20.05)
UTG+1 ($18.15)
UTG+2 ($14.85)
MP1 ($30.70)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.50.
<font color="666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls $0, UTG+2 calls $0, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls $0, Hero calls $0, CO (poster) checks, Button calls $0, SB completes, BB checks,50,50,50,50,50,

Flop: ($4) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(8 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, MP2 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets $3</font>, CO folds, Button calls $3, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP2 folds.

Turn: ($10) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets $6</font>, <font color="CC3333">Button raises to $12</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to $32.7 (All-In)</font>, Button folds.

Final Pot: $54.70
<font color="green">Main Pot: $34, won by Hero.</font>
<font color="green">Pot 2: $20.70, returned to Hero.</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
No showdown. Hero wins $54.70. </font>

Button had about $10 left when I went all in, I got excited and pushed in, should I have slowed down and just raised him by about $5 to get him to come in? I figured with just $10 left he'd probably come in anyway. Should I have smooth called his raise and nailed him on the river? I figure him for 2 pair or a set, my guess is 2 pair.

[Huskiez]

I think the reraise all in is a much better play. If he has the K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif or Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, you definitely don't want to let him see that river for cheap. If he has two pair, and especially a set, you want to charge him the maximum to fill up.

[JrJordan]

Preflop and flop both look fine. Nice to bet out with the flush/straight draws. Considering his dwindling stack left, I'd probably throw in another minraise to $18. He will surely call it, and then is pot committed for the last $4 on the river regardless of what falls. If you position on him, I'd be more inclined to smooth call to the river. He would most likely think his hand is good and bet out with it. Then you could get him for the rest. I think you realize your own mistake on this one. Overall though, nice hand.

[JrJordan]

Husk,
Do you think he would throw in a minraise with just a nut diamond draw? I imagine if he had the Q or K he would just call it, hoping to spike another diamond on the river. I think the bigger issue would be that if another diamond came, our hero would lose any action on the river. Some sort of bet on the turn is good, I'd just prefer the one that makes it easier for him to call, yet keeps him pot committed.

[Huskiez]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think he would throw in a minraise with just a nut diamond draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe to scare away hero if he had some two pair but is testing the waters with a weak turn bet?

I don't know what villain would minraise here with in this situation, but I could see him doing it with a high diamond draw and a pair, two pair, set, or made flush. They may not have wanted to raise the flop because they wanted to play a cheap hand if he had something like K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif or a flush draw, or wanted to slowplay a set or two pair. However, I am really surprised villain folded here. I can't imagine a Party player laying down any of those hands for $10 more.

It could also be (and in this case I think it was) a test bet to see how good a hand Hero had here. I would guess he probably had only a pair with no diamond.

[ QUOTE ]
I think the bigger issue would be that if another diamond came, our hero would lose any action on the river. Some sort of bet on the turn is good, I'd just prefer the one that makes it easier for him to call, yet keeps him pot committed.

[/ QUOTE ]

All the more reason to reraise the turn? I don't see what hand he could have that would call a min-reraise of $6 but fold to a reraise of $10 more.

[JrJordan]

The min-reraise is probably more pyschological than anything. I can't imagine the avg. PPer folding to "just a minraise". For some reason I think that $4 could be a much greater difference than it truly is worth. I'd say there is a noteworthy difference between reraising to $7 and min-reraising to $6. I'm not saying the gap is profound, but it's worth the shot to see if he'll call that amount when it doesn't cost you anything if he folds. Like you said, if he folds to $6, he'll surely fold to $10.

[Huskiez]

I think I forgot to mention that the key is we want Villain to make a mistake. If he has a set or a flush draw, we are rooting for him to fold, but if we only min-reraise, he is getting odds to call, and is therefore not making a mistake.

If Hero min-reraises 6 more on top, the pot will be 10 + 12 + 18 = 40, and Villain has to call 6 more, or immediate pot odds of 40:6. He is getting implied odds of 40 + 4 = 44:6.

With a reraise all in, the pot will be 10 + 12 + 22 = 44, and Villain has to call 10 more, so pot odds of 44:10.

If Villain has a higher flush draw, we know he has 7 outs, out of 44 cards. Being 44:7 to hit, he should then call the $6 min-reraise but fold to an all in.

If Villain has a set, we know he has 10 outs out of 44 cards. He should then call a minreraise, and it doesn't matter what he does if Hero pushes.

If Villain has two pair, he has 4 outs out of 44 cards. He should fold either way.

I think reraising all in puts Villain at more of a disadvantage, especially when he has a higher flush draw or a set. I think the more likely it is that Villain has a flush draw or a set, the more a push is needed.

I personally would push just because I want the pot now, it's grown big enough, and I want to make the river as expensive as possible.

Of course the $6 min-reraise pretty much pot commits him, but it screams made flush. I personally think a push looks less suspicious. However like you said, I can't imagine a Party player min-raising and then folding to a min-reraise.

Also, because Villain will be pretty much pot committed, he really is getting 44:10 because he's going to call off that extra $4 anyway.

I may be wrong. I think this logic would work more so if there were deeper stacks.

[JrJordan]

I guess I never applied it to a pot odds scenario because I assumed he was pot committed regardless and would not be able to fold the last $4 if he missed his draw. I completely agree that in a deep stack game I would never min-reraise. In the end I think we're both fighting the same fight, getting all of the villain's $10 in the pot one way or another. Assuming the villain would be able to fold the last $4 if he doesn't hit his flush, then you are regarding implied odds and that he should have put him all in.

[bunky9590]

If he only had 10 bucks left the all in is fine. I f the stacks are deeper a call is in order.