Warning to B&M newbies on the meaning of "table stakes"!

[burningyen]

The past few days were my 1st playing poker in a B&M casino, and yesterday I became painfully acquainted with a cardroom rule at Mandalay Bay. In the $200 buy-in $2/4 NL game I took a big hit with AQ vs. KK (Q on the flop, of course) and was down to $17 in chips. I asked for another stack of $100. After my request was noted, but before I received the new stack, the next hand began, and I looked down at yet another AQ. I tossed in my $17 and said "all in." My intention was to go all in for only $17. The dealer said it was $17 to go, but then another player pointed out that I had $100 more coming to me and that my entire stack was committed. The dealer agreed. I asked for the manager, who confirmed that my $100 was in play. Oh well, I had completely misinterpreted the meaning of "table stakes" and was resigned to my fate. Then, in a great show of sportsmanship, the other players at the table agreed to lay down their hands. The guy who took me down with his KK told me he had AKs, and I believed him (he couldn't show me his cards because he wasn't last to act). It ended up being a profitable day for me, but it would have been tough to come back if that hand had gone the other way. I hope this anecdote serves as a lesson to my fellow B&M newbies.

[Toro]

When you asked for the 100 in chips did the floorperson say something like "100 behind". He should have and that would have signified that you had another 100 on the table although the actual chips were not yet there.

Of course, if you were a newbie to B&M that announcement probably would have been meaningless to you.

[playerfl]

thats scary, thx for the tip.

[burningyen]

At this point I don't remember what if anything the floorperson said. And you're right, it would've been meaningless to me anyway.

[Ed Miller]

Yes. Once you give money to a chip runner, it is generally considered part of your stack even though you don't have chips for it yet. The chip runner will usually say "$100 behind" to signify that you have $100 extra in your stack than you have chips.

If you are new and are wondering whether you are "playing behind" or not, just ask. I'm glad your "learning the hard way" didn't turn out too badly. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Unfortunately, I see stuff like this regularly, but often not with such a good ending (you just got lucky here). People need to be aware of the rules in a casino. People (and the pit bosses) don't take rule or ettiquette violations at the blackjack or craps tables lightly, why should they at the poker tables? The difference seems to be that everyone seems to know this when playing blackjack, but they think playing poker in a casino is "just like a home game." I see this frequently with "internet" players, they don't know even the most basic things about playing in a casino, and their ineptitude disrupts the game and causes problems.

If you are going to risk your money in a casino, you had damn well better know what you are doing, poker included! It's up to those who are playing to learn the rules and ettiquette of their games!

al

[SheridanCat]

[ QUOTE ]

<snip>
The difference seems to be that everyone seems to know this when playing blackjack, but they think playing poker in a casino is "just like a home game." I see this frequently with "internet" players, they don't know even the most basic things about playing in a casino, and their ineptitude disrupts the game and causes problems.

If you are going to risk your money in a casino, you had damn well better know what you are doing, poker included! It's up to those who are playing to learn the rules and ettiquette of their games!


[/ QUOTE ]

Spoken like a true nit, Al. Which I didn't think you were.

The other players at the table were, rather, thinking "Wow, this guy doesn't really know what he's doing. Why take him out now, embarrassing him and possibly causing him to rack up, when we can try to keep him donating."

Posters here, even experienced posters who know exactly what they're doing, advocate being kind to the less clueful. Why incite them to get a clue, right?

My apologies to the OP, I'm not trying to indicate you were clueless (though you were somewhat by your own admission), rather I'm trying to figure out why Al wants clueful opponents.

Regards,

T

[burningyen]

It did occur to me that they were only too happy to keep me at the table.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I may often BE the one who is nice to the ones who don't know the rules, I might even quietly explain the rules to them so they DON'T leave the table.

However, to those who are posting on 2+2, take my words for how they were meant to come out - HARSH. If you post here, you should certainly not be part of the problem when it comes to players who don't know the most basic rules and ettiquette of casino poker play, and who subsequently disrupt the games because of it.

Sometimes even the absolute worst playing opponents understand the rules and ettiquette just fine, therefore that is not an absolute indicator of skill or fishyness. The fish who understand the rules and procedures, and thus play quickly and without problems, are the ABSOLUTE BEST opponents of all.

al

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

I don't think I'm particularly fishy, but I gotta disagree with you on this one Al. As an internet player and 2+2er, I asked many questions here before going to the casino, but still made several errors, including showing one card and throwing the other into the muck when I beat some guy's KK with AJ. On one hand there were two low pairs on the board, and me and another fellow bet it (we both held aces). The river brought a boat to the board. I bet and he called. He said "I'm just playing the board." I said, "me too, chop" and tossed my cards FACE DOWN toward the muck (I've mentioned this hand here before). As much as I tried to prep, there are situations that you just can't plan for. Fortunately, this was the 3/6 and the dealer quickly turned my cards up and admonished me against doing what I did. He chopped the pot and nobody complained. Had I been a newbie and a fish (I hope I was just one, maybe I was both), I might have gotten pissed at the pot being pushed to the other guy, and left.

[Brannigan]

B&M Newbie here, with about 21 hours left until I break my cherry.

Since the subject has been raised, I'm very curious as to what is bad form, rudeness, or just plain pot suicide in a cardroom setting?

I'm not expecting anyone to break down all the rules of a common cardroom but I'd appreciate it if anyone mentioned their pet peeves or the mistakes they see most often?

Thanks in advance.

[Toro]

Thge main thing is to pay attention and act when it is your turn. And don't keep asking "how much is the bet". You could ask this once but if you're paying attention you should be able to remember how much the bet is suppose to be on the various streets.

Of course if you've played on-line you should know this stuff cold already. Last one, don't act out of turn. If you got a terrible hand and you're dying to fold, don't. Wait until it's your turn, then fold. If you violate this rule you may catch from serious flack from other players sicne a premature fold can influence how others may play their hand.

[Eihli]

I thought words didn't denote an action, so saying all-in doesn't necesserily put you all-in, and that Putting chips int he pot denotes your aciton.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Verbal statements made in turn are generally binding, and it should be that way too. Prevents angle shooting.

al

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

Verbal declarations are generally considered binding. Say "all-in" and you are. Say "call" and you cannot raise. Say "raise" and you must.

Dickhead regular at the Mirage 6/12 I was playing made monstrous stink and called over the floor, when a player tossed out two $5 chips preflop and said "raise," but not very loudly. He then put out two $1 chips. There ensued a lengthy argument between dickhead and the entire rest of the table (with all but one taking the raiser's side or choosing to not comment) as to whether the chips struck the table a micro-second before he said raise, or at the same time. Complicating this, dickhead did not complain until, three players later, when it was three-bet back to him. Then he started shouting about the string bet. Five minutes and much bitching later, the floor agreed to disallow the raise. Dickhead was appeased for only about 30 seconds. The raise was withdrawn, LP raised, dickhead called from EP and the original raiser three-bet. LP capped it and Dickhead called, putting him all-in with crap. I have no idea who won the hand, but dickhead lost, rebought and berated the dealer for 15 minutes until she broke bad on him (nice to see a little old lady dealer slapping someone down, but she probably should have held her cool). The floor gave him a time out, as all misbehaving children should get, but not soon enough.

[goofball]

this has always been the case anywhere i've played

if you say raise you must. even if you say fold you must.

if you say "hmm, should i 3bet" or something though, that is definietly not binding.

[chesspain]

When playing in a Hideaway 4/8 game during my recent to Seattle, I sat next to a drunken, thirtyish, trailor-parkish guy who warned me after I said "raise" on the flop and tossed in seven (rather than eight) $1 chips that if I performed that action without saying "raise" it would be a string bet.

Later, when the player in UTG performed the same $7 bet without saying anything, trailor-park guy called "string-raise," and got the openraise disallowed. Is this the rule everywhere?

[goofball]

yes

[Edge34]

I don't think of it as too much of a string raise, as the intention is obvious, or at least should be. Sounds like the guy you were playing with is one HELLUVA nit.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the intention of the string bet rule is to avoid people from angle shooting by getting reactions then completing the raise. While TECHNICALLY this may be a string raise, I've never seen it called that in any of my games at Canterbury.

Of course, this is all easily cleared up with a simple verbal declaration - simple enough.

[burningyen]

I also had an interesting lesson in actions vs. words. In the Mandalay tourney, when the bet was $50 to me and I had plenty of $25 chips, I tossed in a $100 chip and said nothing, assuming it would be understood I was raising. No dice. I was deemed to have bet $50. So from then on I made sure to say "raise" when raising and "call" whenever calling with a chip bigger than the bet.

[Softrock]

The rule varies from room to room. In most of the places I've played in California if you have more than 1/2 of the second bet in, then it's OK and not a string raise.

[Luv2DriveTT]

[ QUOTE ]
I also had an interesting lesson in actions vs. words. In the Mandalay tourney, when the bet was $50 to me and I had plenty of $25 chips, I tossed in a $100 chip and said nothing, assuming it would be understood I was raising. No dice. I was deemed to have bet $50. So from then on I made sure to say "raise" when raising and "call" whenever calling with a chip bigger than the bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is a standard rule everywhere. Unless you say raise before the chip hits, you are just calling and will get back your change.

As for String Bets - In a limit game as long as you say raise FIRST you can put your chips out at your own pace, one at a time if you like. NL is a diferent horse altogether for the obvious reason. So Mr. Trailer Park Trash was correct the second time, but not the first time when he berated you.

In da club /images/graemlins/club.gif

[Cohiba Al]

At Foxwoods there is a single chip rule as well, where if you put in a single chip of a denomination larger than the current bet you are considered to have only called unless verbalizing "raise". Putting out multiple chips will automatically be considered raising if the amount is atleast 1.5 times the current bet (and thus not a string-bet if you happen to miss by just one chip).

Putting out a black $100 chip on a $25 dollar bet will be a call unless you say "raise".

Putting out three $5 chips on a $10 dollar bet will be a raise and the dealer will have you complete the raise to $20.

[Bulldog]

I had a discussion about this at the Borgata the other day. I was playing 6/12, and preflop a player put a green ($25) and a white ($1) chip in. I asked if it was a raise and he said no. After the hand I wanted an explanation as to why, because the rule about amounts over being a call applied to a single chip, and this player put $26 in two chips in. Everybody agreed it was a call so I didn't make a stink, I said I just wanted to understand. I still don't.

[PokerFink]

I'm assuming that he put this $26 to call one small bet. Therefore, he gets change of $20, instead of $19, if he had put in just the green. Twenty works out evently to four nickels, which is why he put in the extra white chip in the first place.

In most places, if you don't verbally declare raise, it ain't a raise, unless you put in the exact right amount for a raise.

[Randy_Refeld]

If poker was played exactly by a set of written rules this would be a raise. It is not a raise becasue everyone "knows" he was making it easier for the dealer to make change.

Randy Refeld

[GuyOnTilt]

Later, when the player in UTG performed the same $7 bet without saying anything, trailor-park guy called "string-raise," and got the openraise disallowed. Is this the rule everywhere?

Yes, it is.

BTW, that guy didn't happen to look like the trailer-park version of John Edwards, did he?

GoT