Buying the pot and how to identify it.

[arkady]

Continuing my tradition with posting obscure hands and plays, here is one I thought fit the bill.

Scenario: Monday night, Party 5/10, place is so tight and quiet you can hear a pin drop. Avid is sitting somewhere at the table and him and I are discussing how pathetic this game is. Raises are picking up blinds twice an orbit and everyone generally comes in for a raise. I have raised with some marginal hands, but so far no one has noticed anything odd.

The hand: Not a hand I generally come in for a raise with, but this is the table to do it at. The blinds in this case seem to be a bit poorer than the rest of the table...(unless you want to count Avid - j/k!)

What to look for: Concentrate on the river.


Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="666666">6 folds</font>, BB calls,

Flop: (4.40 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Turn: (3.20 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

River: (5.20 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises! and holds his breath </font>

[AviD]

FU Party!!! This was a great hand, I remember it well! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[MoreWineII]

I folded, since I thought you had AA. You bastard!

[sthief09]

first I told you I liked it. now that I see it in hand converter form I don't.

what worse hands are going to call your river raise, and what better hands will fold? if the answer is none, your bluff has no value.

if you think you got him to fold a pocket pair or a deuce, then it's a good bluff. but most likely, he just folded a busted draw with a high card worse than your king.

[MAxx]

CRAZY Man. Was the hand really against MoreWine or was he kidding?

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
I folded, since I thought you had AA. You bastard!

[/ QUOTE ]


was that really you, or is that a joke? headsup, there's no way you should lay down an A here.

[MoreWineII]

No, I was just kidding. My "fold" button is actually broken, so even if I wanted to, I couldn't.

Makes for some interesting sessions.

[MoreWineII]

Kidding. There's no way I could fold on the river to a known 2+2'er. I'd feel so dirty.

[arkady]

I get no respect, I feel so ... dirty.

[MAxx]

This is off on a tangent, and I am sure has been discussed umpteen times before... but. Doesn't it sound like a dissadvantage to use the same or similar name for your poker account as is for your 2+2 name. Seems like lots of peeps do it, but seems like you are giving up too much info? What are your thoughts?

[arkady]

how dare you hijack my thread?

[arkady]

Hands that I could push off include:

KQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif, KJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif, 66, 77, anything with a deuce, anything with a 5. In other words, a lot of hands.

I also did not want to show i was raising with KJs /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[MoreWineII]

I had K-10 os. You had way the best.

[arkady]

arg, cut it out - you were not at that table. Besides, I don't use the same name at Party, so how exactly would you even know its me hehe.

[MoreWineII]

/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[arkady]

busted! i read you just like I read villain /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
first I told you I liked it. now that I see it in hand converter form I don't.

what worse hands are going to call your river raise, and what better hands will fold? if the answer is none, your bluff has no value.

if you think you got him to fold a pocket pair or a deuce, then it's a good bluff. but most likely, he just folded a busted draw with a high card worse than your king.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is how I see it. I think it is much more likely that BB either has a real hand or is bluffing with nothing, than that he is making a thin value bet with a medium pair that he might fold to a raise here. I think it is rare that you will get a better hand to fold here.

[MAxx]

my bad, didnt mean anything by it or that it would seen as an attempt to hijack. i will edit it out. maybe you are joking, cant tell.

[arkady]

lol, of course i am joking /images/graemlins/smile.gif

shoulda put a few /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/smirk.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

what you posted as a question is more interesting than my hand apparently, so don't edit it out plz.

[chesspain]

On the river, the pot is laying you 3:1 on your bluff raise. Do you really think there is at least a 33% chance that BB will fold a better hand or call with an even worse no-pair hand? I seriously doubt it.

[Lost Wages]

FPS alert. Looks like he rope-a-doped you with a weak ace. Of course the fact that you posted the hand tips the scales to your favor /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Lost Wages

[StellarWind]

This hand is a curious dual of GoT's current thread where he bets the river into the leader when the board pairs.

Your bluff catcher looks sound so I don't see the purpose of this raise. I think it fails the better hand fold/worse hand call test except possibly K /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif or K /images/graemlins/heart.gifJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif. I would just call.

Your description of BB does not help your case.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
On the river, the pot is laying you 3:1 on your bluff raise. Do you really think there is at least a 33% chance that BB will fold a better hand or call with an even worse no-pair hand?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't expect a worse hand to call and will neglect that possibility.

He may be ahead here and should consider calling for the pot odds. Once he decides to at least call, it doesn't matter whether he raises when he is ahead. When he is behind the bluff raise gets 7.2-1 odds.

Not enough IMO, but those are the odds.

[arkady]

You know, I think that question would be more appropriate if I went for a bet bluff.

But HE bet after calling the whole way, trying to represent a 4? It looked like a desperation attempt and that is what I picked up on, so how often will he NOT have that 4? Often.

And when he does not, will he bet out like that with an A? I don't know, but that was the thinking and thus the chance of the fold to me were more than 50.

[arkady]

My description doesn't really mean anything, other than I could probably put a move here.

I am actually going to revise my initial idea and suggest that he can fold higher pocket pairs here too, there is that possibility his probing bet wanted to see whether or not I had the A, after which he could fold something like 88. Possible?

[arkady]

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BB thinks for about 7 seconds and shoots the hand into the muck. Hero exhales. FEELS PROUD AND GOOD. STRONG ENUF TO BEAT ZE WORLD. (morewhine, got the reference?)

[Lost Wages]

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fold?

[arkady]

Yes, man that multi line word thing is annoying. Cut it out /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
On the river, the pot is laying you 3:1 on your bluff raise. Do you really think there is at least a 33% chance that BB will fold a better hand or call with an even worse no-pair hand?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't expect a worse hand to call and will neglect that possibility.

He may be ahead here and should consider calling for the pot odds. Once he decides to at least call, it doesn't matter whether he raises when he is ahead. When he is behind the bluff raise gets 7.2-1 odds.


[/ QUOTE ]

Can you please explain how you arrived at those odds.

[bernie]

I agree that it looks like a busted flush draw.

[ QUOTE ]
what worse hands are going to call your river raise, and what better hands will fold? if the answer is none, your bluff has no value.

[/ QUOTE ]

No value? Don't underestimate the power of not showing your hand here. Especially on a tight table that he describes where info is hard to come by. Not to mention the psychological confidence boost from doing it which may actually accentuate his game a bit to take control of the table and bully it a bit.

A better hand may have folded. Who knows. If he calls, and the guy has a mid/small pair, everyone will then tell him he should've raised wouldn't they?

I liked it.

b

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

He may be ahead here and should consider calling for the pot odds. Once he decides to at least call, it doesn't matter whether he raises when he is ahead. When he is behind the bluff raise gets 7.2-1 odds.


[/ QUOTE ]

Can you please explain how you arrived at those odds.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hero decides to at least call the river bet because of the pot odds. The pot size is now 7.2 BB, including 5.2 BB before the river, the river bet, and the river call.

If Hero has the best hand it does not matter whether he calls or raises so assume that Hero is behind. In that case the villian is about to collect 7.2 BB from the pot. The raise is a bluff that risks 1 BB to win this 7.2 BB. Thus the pot odds on the raise are 7.2-1.

[StellarWind]

Actually I know he gained at least a little. Under Party rules the fold keeps the river betting out of the raked pot. He saved $1 rake by not crossing the $60 threshold.

[arkady]

sw,

that did not even cross my mind! heh...and i would like to add that was bernie said about NOT showing my KJs - was something I told sthief and definitely something on my mind. I mean not only did I raise UTG, i kept betting into an A high board, i dont need anyone paying even a bit of attention to see that and I will sacrifice 1 bb for it.

[stinkypete]

[ QUOTE ]
I am actually going to revise my initial idea and suggest that he can fold higher pocket pairs here too, there is that possibility his probing bet wanted to see whether or not I had the A, after which he could fold something like 88. Possible?

[/ QUOTE ]

why would he make that probing bet when he can just call it down for the same price? if he wants to see whether he has the ace, it'll cost him at most one bet if he checks. Possible? if he's a big moron...

[arkady]

[ QUOTE ]
Possible? if he's a big moron...

[/ QUOTE ]

we dont get rich at poker by playing against geniuses.