KQs in BB

[akira]

I was playing a live MTT tournament (pretty loose) on a full table, blinds are 100/200 and I have about 4500 in chips (about average). I am in BB and get KQs. There are 3 limpers. What should I do in this spot?

Usually if I am in another position besides BB/SB I will openraise this 3XBB, or if there are limpers raise 4-5XBB . Is there a point in raising this from BB since already has some money in and I have less folding equity? Is there a difference between raiseable hands from BB/SB as opposed to everywhere else, and which hands would you raise in this situation?

[akira]

[ QUOTE ]
I was playing a live MTT tournament (pretty loose) on a full table, blinds are 100/200 and I have about 4500 in chips (about average). I am in BB and get KQs. There are 3 limpers. What should I do in this spot?

Usually if I am in another position besides BB/SB I will openraise this 3XBB, or if there are limpers raise 4-5XBB . Is there a point in raising this from BB since already has some money in and I have less folding equity? Is there a difference between raiseable hands from BB/SB as opposed to everywhere else, and which hands would you raise in this situation?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok no comments so far - I'll continue the post w/ my terrible play.

I raised to 4XBB. First limper folded and the next 2 called. Flop came rags (8s 5c 2h). Checked all around. Turn brings another 8d. I check, MP bets 500, LP calls, I call. At this point I know MP does not have anything otherwise he would have bet the flop. River comes Ac. Already having put in 1200 in this pot, I try to steal and for some reason decide to bet 500 into a ~3000 pot. Sheesh. MP calls w/ Ace - rag.

Ok so looking back at this, it was terrible play. Coming from a limit game I have a hard time knowing what to do when my overcards miss the flop, especially since mistakes are so costly. Looking over my play now, here are some things I can think of:

1) Bet pot size or push all in after 8 shows up in the turn (before MP bets 500), since I'm fairly certain no one has anything.
2) Fold after MP bets 500.
3) Reraise all in (semibluff reraise) after MP bets 500.
4) Not raise this hand pf from BB so I don't feel so pot committed.
5) Push pf from BB

Any comments, and how would you rate these?

Thanks!

[skierdude1000]

I would've pushed on the turn, but that's just me and I like to play agressive.

[cferejohn]

With this many limpers, I'd probably just check along from the BB and check fold a missed flop. If I do raise, its gotta be enough to have a chance to fold everyone, and with 3 limpers, 4x the BB is not going to do it. *If* I raise, it is to at least 1000, maybe to 1200.

If you 'knew' from the flop action that nobody had anything, why not make a bet, say about T1000, on the turn? Your smallish raise (given the limpers) out of the BB and then a check on the flop sure looks like an overpair looking to check-raise; follow through with that.

If you wanted to push the river, my hat is off to you. Plenty of players lay down ace-rag there; no idea if MP was one of them. I have no idea what betting 500 is going to accomplish, and from the tone of your post, neither do you. You're going to get called by at least any ace, and possibly by smaller pairs as well.

It sounds like your biggest problem is you didn't have reasons for doing many of the things you did. I just read Allen Schoonmaker's (probabably misspelled) Psychology of Poker. In that book, he talks alot about "thinking visibly". That is to say, you should be able to verbalize why you do a certain thing. If you are just sitting there in front of a computer, you can even say it out loud. It looks like several of these moves had no reason to them (especially the weak river bluff).

[durron597]

Pushing on the turn is good, though I like to just call and take a free flop. Limpers tend to have an ace (especially when there's multiple of them), and if you don't pair the board, KQ is a big dog to any ace. So you see a free flop, and can very cheaply fold if you don't like the flop, or you can take a cheap stab (pot sized bet is small) at the blinds if you want to play more aggressively. AK/AQ probably would raise, so you should be safe as far as that goes. If you raise, then you have a big pot that is hard to take with a pot sized bet because if you get called it's a big chunk of your stack.

Given what you did, though, I definitely push the turn; don't give Ax a reason to think he has the best hand.

[davidross]

In almost all cases I would just check here and see what the flop brings.

If I raised i don't want to be called, so it would have to be an amount I thought these guys would fold to. That will be very table dependant. The last thing I want is to make a big raise, get called ans then have to play when the flop misses me.

[davidross]

OK to follow up. Your raise pre-flop didn't get the jobdone, and now you see why it had to be big enough to knock people out. But u got 2 callers which is pretty good, If you hit (and you should hit 1 out of 3) at least you got a good price on your raise. I like the check on the flop, I hate the call on the turn, and the bet on the river is terrible.

KQs is a nice hand in this situation, but it's not a monster. If you limp, there is a good chance you can get someone's chips on a K or Q high flop. KJ or QJ are very possible hands out there.I don't think you need to raise pre-flop to do well here. If these opponents are loose enough (and it seems they are) to call a raise with Ax, you need to wait until you have a big pair or AK and then punish them. Patience, patience patience.

Seriously, I play pretty conservative and tight. You need to choose a style that works for you. THe big raise from the BB and a pot sized bet on the flop probably wins you a nice pot 90% of the time, and 10% of the time you'll be out or crippled. A strong argument could be made for playing it that way too. But you seemed to take a middle, inconsistent ground, aggressive, then passive, then really passive (the turn call), then weakly aggressive. When you confuse people, as this surely did, they usually call.

[skierdude1000]

Ya I forgot to say you should've checked preflop, but others have pointed it out, no need to raise here, KQ is a extremely vulnerable hand to an ace

[tripdad]

KQs in the BB, while a strong hand, does not warrant a raise IMO, merely because you are out of position. if you do raise, you want to take down the pot preflop, so raise BIG. maybe a case can be made for a min-raise, just to build the pot a bit in case you hit good.

also, why did you feel pot committed after raising just T600? you have T3900 left...you are not pot committed by any means. check/fold would have been much more prudent.

cheers!