Aggressive or Reckless? ITM late in a SNG

[Benholio]

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t300 (3 handed)

SB (t2550)
BB (t3590)
Hero (t3860)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="CC3333">Hero raises to t1050</font>, SB folds, <font color="CC3333">BB raises to t3300</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to t3590</font>, <font color="CC3333">BB calls</font>.

Flop: J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>

Turn: 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>

River: 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
BB shows As Js (one pair, jacks).
Hero shows Ks 3d (high card, king).
Outcome: BB wins. </font>

My questions are:

1) Is Kx too weak to raise with at this point?
2) Was my raise the wrong amount? Should it have been 3xBB, or all-in instead? ('bet pot' button makes me lazy)
3) Should I have folded to the re-raise?

My read on BB in this hand is that he plays too passive at the late stages. He folded the SB to me about 80% of the time, and mainly limped in when we were down to 4 players. I have been stealing a decent amount, though, so I suspect he would make this raise with less than premium cards, putting me on a steal. Did I play this right? I justified the call based on the pot odds I was now getting, but then wondered if I should have just pushed from the beginning if I was willing to call anyway.

[mistrpug]

1) No, it's fine if you're trying to pick up the blinds, but you don't want to go to showdown with it.
2) Fine amount for a steal raise.
3) Absolutely. You say the BB is too passive, yet you call his big reraise with Kx?!? It's not like you should be desperate here. Bad call.

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
1) Is Kx too weak to raise with at this point?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. If you think they will fold, you can raise with anything. If your oppponents are calling/reraising a lot, then it would be wrong, but that's unusual I would guess.

[ QUOTE ]
2) Was my raise the wrong amount? Should it have been 3xBB, or all-in instead? ('bet pot' button makes me lazy)

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd go for 3BB, but your bet was 3.5BB...so basically the same. In my opinion, you want to bet the same amount every time whether you have AA or K3o. Betting allin every time you want to steal seems like overkill given that you have a 12BB stack. You want to steal often, but be able to get away cheaply if they wake up with a hand. A 3BB (or less) raise is ideal for doing this. However, if your stack were smaller (&lt;10 BB), then allin would be the better choice.

[ QUOTE ]
3) Should I have folded to the re-raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Other than a total bluff, you are an underdog against any reasonable hand.

[ QUOTE ]
My read on BB in this hand is that he plays too passive at the late stages......I justified the call based on the pot odds I was now getting

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you had the odds against the hands he was likely to have. I'm too lazy to do the math, but it's not necessary......if you did have the odds, it was just barely. You already know he is a weak player, so why risk your whole stack on such a close decision? Fold and exploit his weak play on future hands by continuing to try to steal.

[holeplug]

You said he was passive so when he reraises you than he has a good hand. If you planned on not folding to a reraise here than just push preflop to maximize your folding equity.

[Benholio]

Thanks for the replies. I suspected that maybe folding to the re-raise was the right thing to do here, but I'm really stubborn about calling with almost anything at this point when the pot is that big.

[slogger]

"...wondered if I should have just pushed from the beginning if I was willing to call anyway."

Yes. If you were going to call, you should have pushed.

Also, if you read him as passive, doesn't that also mean he's been waiting for a hand to play back at you with?

In your shoes, I probably would've pushed. The blinds are just too large to be playing around. But if you feel like there are players who are dying to play back at you, I could also see folding this pre-flop. I know some here advocate a "shock and awe" style of non-stop pushing when short-handed, and I don't think this is far from perfect strategy, but there's something to be said for showing your opponents that you're willing to fold a hand or two.

Finally, if you do make a less than all-in raise (not advisable), do so with intention of trying to make someone play back at (when holding AA, KK or QQ) or do so with the intention of folding to a push.

[mistrpug]

I wanted to add that you said "I justified the call based on the pot odds I was now getting" and pot odds aren't that important in tournament play. Your main goal is to survive.

Example: If the pot is laying you 4:1, you should take it everytime in a cash game if you estimate you have say a 35% chance of winning the hand against a lone opponent. That's a great bet. Now in the same situation in a tournament, that's a questionable best at best, especially if you're risking all your chips.

I recommend you read Sklansky's book on tournament play, that will help.

[Jason Strasser]

Benholio,

It all comes down to whether you have a plan going into the hand. It is essential that you just aren't raising for the sake of raising--but that you know what you will do when certain situations arise (someone plays back).

If you are going to call an all-in here, then you ought to push preflop with this type of hand. You are close enough to 10xBB where that type of move would be acceptable. I personally would not push here, as the blinds are a little low for my liking relative to my stack size.

If you make a raise that is not all-in, make it so that:

a) You'd bet the same amt in this spot with your premium hands, so you aren't telegraphing anything.
b) You are comfortable folding to a reraise.

I personally think 3.5BB is way too much in this spot. Something in the range of 2.5-3BB is good. You'll also feel better about folding to a reraise.

Peace,
-Jason

[poboys]

1-Stealing with K3 is marginal, in my opinion.
2-I vote for a consistent raise amount--bet what'd you bet with AQ.
3-FOLD. K3 is garbage in a showdown. You don't want any part of the re-raise. Sure you are getting 2:1 on your money, but do you really want to showdown with K3o? I can't think of any hand that he'd reraise with you that you'd be happy with, esp given your read.

[tubbyspencer]

(1) Raising w Kx here is fine; in fact, I think not to do so is wrong, especially considering the frequent folds.

(2) I have a different take on the amount of the raise question. I actually like a minimum(2x) raise here, for a couple of reasons. First, it will probably have the same effect(make them fold) if they do not like their hands and, Second, it will be easier to get away from if you're reraised.

(3) Definite fold. The fact that the bb has been folding so much already tells you he probably has you beat. What could he have that you beat here? (Even K2 is a likely tie.) You can beat QJ,QT,JT,and other connectors possibly - but given his folding habits that seems very unlikely. I think he's telling you he's got an Ace or a pair, or at the very least a K that probably dominates you. Easier said than done though; I call in the same spot way too often - I'm sure. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ZeeJustin]

There is not enough value in K3o for this raise to be inherently profitable. The only way to justify this raise is if you expect the blinds to play excessively poorly (which in this case would probably mean folding WAY too much).

[Jason Strasser]

It's close, where do u get this answer from?

[ZeeJustin]

It's not close. K7o would be close.

[Jason Strasser]

Where did you get this from?

[ZeeJustin]

Most of my preflop standards came from playing limit 6 max. Adjusting these standards to NL was easy, but adjusting to stack sizes and payouts took a lot of practice. After playing over 2000 sng's, I think I have my preflop standards down pretty well.

I have also done some math and some simulations, mostly for when 4 people are left.

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]

My read on BB in this hand is that he plays too passive at the late stages. He folded the SB to me about 80% of the time, and mainly limped in when we were down to 4 players.


[/ QUOTE ]
Why did you ignore this? This is valuable information, and it argues strongly against your play.

/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Someone who is willing to fold the small blind to you is also likely to fold to a minimum raise. So, don't pot-commit yourself.

/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Perhaps you had the pot-odds to call (I don't think so), but it was at best marginal. (Just about any ace, decent king, or pocket pair is a 2:1 favorite over you or better.) Although it is important to consider pot-odds in tournament play, getting the SB folded to you often is worth a lot. It's worth a lot of free chips in the future. In any marginal decision, lean toward keeping yourself and the BB alive so that you can get more small blinds folded to you in the future. That argues against calling.

/images/graemlins/diamond.gif Folding a lot is not passive. It is tight. When a tight player plays back at you, that usually means they have a hand. Ignore this at your peril.

Despite what others have said, it is not right to push every time you are willing to call all-in. Here, I think you should make a smaller raise, and perhaps call if the short-stack pushes and the BB folds, and fold if the BB pushes. After your 3.5BB raise, I think you should fold to the BB's push, since you are getting a bit worse than 2:1 from the pot, assuming the rest of the chips will go in later.