Am I seeing enough flops?

[blubster]

My early stats say I see 22% of flops. Is that enough flops? Too little?

Just wondering what a good number would be short handed.

blubster

[joeboss]

i see 26.8%

[donkeyradish]

A supplementary question:

I am at a 6 handed table

If the other 5 players are seeing 70% of flops, should I be ideally tending to see more, or fewer flops than in a situation where everyone else is seeing 45%? What if they are only seeing 22%?

I'm guessing that if I were to see about one flop in 3 no matter what, it would be fine in all these cases. But I'm not sure

[Peter_rus]

Both cases - if they are very loose or very tight you must see more flops.

[donkeyradish]

Interesting, so this must mean that sometimes, a player who plays "somewhat" too loose in general is playing perfectly pre-flop without even trying? If the table conditions are suitable, that is

[rory]

I also see 22% and I do not think it is too tight.

-rory

[Nottom]

This is VPiP ... not total flops seen. Correct?

[blubster]

No, it's flops seen.

blubster

[tripdad]

an ideal VPIP% is around 20%...give or take. this would give you a "see flop %" around 35%. you, my friend, are one craggy rock!

one thing...did you just start playing? if this is just a couple short sessions, you may just be running card dead. i've certainly had my share of flop% sessions in that range, but without exceptions, they are losing sessions.

cheers!

[tripdad]

[ QUOTE ]
I also see 22% and I do not think it is too tight.

-rory

[/ QUOTE ]

you aren't even seeing 3 flops every 2 orbits. i certainly cannot fathom being able to profit by doing that. if you can, you must be amazing at table selection.

cheers!

[blubster]

[ QUOTE ]
you, my friend, are one craggy rock!


[/ QUOTE ]

lol

I guess as of now i'm weak tight /images/graemlins/frown.gif

well for my stats so far I only have a couple thousand hands but it says:

VPIP: 14.83%
Saw Flop on all hands: 22.72%

blubster

[vector]

[ QUOTE ]

VPIP: 14.83%
Saw Flop on all hands: 22.72%


[/ QUOTE ]

My intitial strategy for short handed play gave me a VPIP of about 15%. After 10,000 hands I was just over break even.

I then changed my preflop play to get a VPIP of about 21%, and things have improved dramatically. (Post flop I don't believe my play has changed much, and my preflop raise percentage has stayed steady at 14% with both styles).

I think it is just too hard to win back the price of the blinds with a VPIP as low as yours.

But my sample size isn't great, so I'd be very interested hearing from anyone who's getting good results with a VPIP this low.

Another thing I found was that a very tight preflop strategy meant I wasn't defending my BB enough, and that was a big leak.

Cheers,
vector

[FrankLu99]

[ QUOTE ]
My early stats say I see 22% of flops. Is that enough flops? Too little?

Just wondering what a good number would be short handed.



blubster

[/ QUOTE ]

I think 40 to 50% is a good round number to aim for. 2/6 is 33% which are the blinds 6 handed. 22% is too freaking tight. u must lose a lot of money to blind stealing. over50% isprob needed at a 5 handed game.

but who knows i suck at poker

[blubster]

hi vector, can u give me some tips on how to boost my VPIP?
what kinds of hands did u start playing?

about the only hands i can see that i can possibly add to me starting hands are hands like A8o , A7o, A6o, i guess.
maybe play these from LP with 1 limper.

are u playing such low aces? i didnt think i'd have to play low aces to be proftable.

i think i'm gonna add K8o too and play K9o more then i've been playing.

blubster

[Nottom]

20% is too tight 50% is too loose. I'm pretty sure somewhere in the 30-35% range is probably about right.

[Nottom]

[ QUOTE ]
about the only hands i can see that i can possibly add to me starting hands are hands like A8o , A7o, A6o, i guess.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
i think i'm gonna add K8o too and play K9o more then i've been playing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aside from blind stealing situations, this would almost assuredly be a mistake.

[blubster]

gee, maybe its just im folding too much in the blinds. and its as simple as that , just play more hands from the BB and SB.

blubster

[vector]

[ QUOTE ]
gee, maybe its just im folding too much in the blinds. and its as simple as that , just play more hands from the BB and SB.

[/ QUOTE ]

That could well be part of it - use PT to see how much you are losing from the blinds, and how many often you are folding to steals. Then compare that to the numerous threads in this forum that analyse these stats.

Certainly for me being more liberal from the BB helped, and of course it ups the VPIP.

I would caution against getting too liberal from the SB. Given the $2-$5 structure, I believe its more difficult to be too tight from the SB. Or put another way, my natural tightness worked fine from the SB, but was a big liability from the BB.

I believe my numbers are FBB to steal 66%, and SB 82% (I think, or it may be 87 don't have PT in front of me). I think the BB number needs to come down more still.

During my bad period my fold BB to steal was up in the high 70s%, and when I looked at the position tab in PT it showed me losing .22 BBs from the BB. This has dropped considerably now to .13. Judging from a thread on this I read here optimal BB play will get this down a little more than this, perhaps as low as .10.

The sorts of hands I started playing to up my VPIP was things like KTo, A5s, Q9s (where conditions warranted them), making more steal attempts with low PPs, eg: raise 22 from cutoff in unopened pot if you feel there's a good chance of getting heads up or taking it there. Nothing earth shattering, just pushed down my requirements a little in most areas. Its still early days and I have grouped all my hands into classes to track their results in PT. If after a significant number of hands all hands in a class are positive I'll try adding the next hand down and so on. If one is negative, I'll get rid of it and try something else (or just tighten up a bit).

I think the position tab in PT is great (as long as you are looking at a reasonable sample size).

One other thing, you can work out the percentage chance of getting any one pair, any suited hand and any offsuit hand (maths not included here!). Then make yourself an average table of your starting requirements (obviously this changes with position/action, so do something like from the CO with one limper). Then add the percentages of each hand you plan to play and you get a total which (in my experience) is remarkably close to what your VPIP will now be. (Steals with less than this, and folding otherwise playable hands to raises etc seem to just about avg out to the original in my experience, at least within about 2%).

Using this you can plan out changes to your preflop strategy without actually doing them. Of course the only point to this is if you decide that VPIP X% is a good thing, and you want to achieve it. It lets you see different ways of getting there, though you need to decide which hands you think can be played for profit and which can't. The great thing is though that eventually PT will let you know if you were right or not.

Cheers,
vector

[blubster]

hmm i'm already playing those hands.

i play Axs too with a couple of limpers in. I gotta learn when I can play Axs with only one limper in or when i can open raise with a hand like A6s or A5s for example.

thanks

blubster

[Peter_rus]

I have 34 SF and find it good. 22 SF is pretty rock and weak i think.