Q-Jo - In trouble

[Avatar]

UTG+2 is a bit loose/passive.
No read on UTG as it's his first orbit.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, <font color="CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.75 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls.

With the pot offering 10.75:1, I thought calling was justified in chasing a 10 (clean 4 outs) or another Jack (could be clean 2 outs).

River: (11.75 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 13.75 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 13.75 BB, between UTG and UTG+2.</font>

Anyone actually making this call on the river, with 2nd pair, pot offering 13.75BB, and UTG+2 acting as bluffing equity in the hand?
If UTG+2 folds, I planned on calling. Wrong?

Criticism on all streets welcome. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[sthief09]

I don't like the raise preflop. with 2 EP limpers, your hand doesn't figure to be that great. I think this is a decent spot to limp in.

I think folding the river is fine.

[MoreWineII]

Damn, thats a toughie. The only reason I might call is that I could see UTG playing J-10 the same way.

What about a raise on the turn? And a fold to a re-raise?

You raised PF, that K has to be a scare card for him if he doesn't already have the goods.

At the very least, it might get you a free showdown. Assuming you don't improve that is.

[Avatar]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like the raise preflop. with 2 EP limpers, your hand doesn't figure to be that great. I think this is a decent spot to limp in.

I think folding the river is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sthief09, what if these EP limpers have VPIP &gt;25% like most typical party 2/4 players? Now do you like the raise?

[Avatar]

UTG shows 10-9o for a pair of nines! HHIG
UTG+2 mucks.

So as it turns out UTG pumped his OESD, and never slowed down with his low 1 pair. I guess this player is a bit of a LAG, but I found this out too late.

As MoreWine suggested, a raise on the turn would have probably done it.

[StellarWind]

I would just call preflop.

I don't accept the basic behind-and-drawing premise. There are so many limping hands that make pair+OESD or pair+gutshot. Those hands often get played to the hilt.

I like the flop and turn play. Raising the turn and risking a 3-bet with a hand full of outs is not a good idea.

At 13.75-1 I absolutely call the river. I don't care about UTG+2. I probably have a better hand than UTG+2 so why do I care what he does? UTG may be bluffing and he may simply have a weaker made hand with outs that never improved.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
If UTG+2 folds, I planned on calling. Wrong?


[/ QUOTE ]

No, I think this is very important. I gave UTG a very good chance of having a pair + a ten as I was reading the hand, but with UTG+2 calling you have very little equity on this river.


He mucked?! Check the HH for what UTG+2 had, not that it matters.

[WEASEL45]

I would fold this pre flop

[HajiShirazu]

I make this call on the river. I expect to win this often enough to warrant a call. He could easily have a hand like JT, TT, 9T, T8, or some other crazy hand. These are hands that lots of people will limp in with UTG. And of course you have UTG+2 beat. He's a calling station.
Ok so I did see the results. But before reading the results, I swear, I said, "hero has to call here. No, don't fold."

[Avatar]

Ah, I got it here Joker.
UTG+2 had A-8o, for 1 pair of eights.

[SA125]

I don't like the raise either. The hand doesn't hold up well against a lot of action. Like this case, where you thought you wisely folded. It's hard to protect. See the flop cheap with position.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
No, I think this is very important. I gave UTG a very good chance of having a pair + a ten as I was reading the hand, but with UTG+2 calling you have very little equity on this river.

[/ QUOTE ]
The overcall concept applies when you can only beat a bluff. The idea is that the bettor may be bluffing but the caller cannot be so you need a better hand than a bluffcatcher to overcall.

This idea does not apply here. We flopped TPGK and we can still beat plenty of legitimate hands. The caller has never shown any strength and we probably have him beat. The primary threat is the bettor. As you observe there is a good chance the bettor's hand is some pair plus a busted draw and we dare not fold at these pot odds.