Help me fix this.... leak??

[Haupt_234]

Lets say all players are unknown in the hand. Table is typical.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (9.33 SB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, MP2 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, <font color="CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (7.66 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero folds, <font color="CC3333">BB raises $10 (All-In)</font>, MP2 calls.

River: (11 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: 11 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 11 BB, between MP2 and BB.</font>

I really have no clue as far as the right play here. This is a huge problem since this situation comes up a good amount of the time.

Since the other calling opponent is there, is it a fold? But if it were heads up, a call down at the very least?

Haupt_234

[Haupt_234]

bumpidump

Haupt_234

[lil']

Check-raising two opponents often indicates a stronger hand than if he just raised you. Also, there are no draws on the board. It also looks like BB is short-stacked and is going all in here.

I'd give him credit for the K. Sometimes you let it go, sometimes you call it down if you suspect something. You can't call ALL of them down, but you can't fold all of them either. In this case, I think folding is right.

[Ralph Wiggum]

If you're giving him credit for the King, then don't you fold on the flop (after his c/r)?

[StellarWind]

No one is answering because we don't know what to do /images/graemlins/confused.gif.

If the raise had come from an earlier position I might fold preflop. Since he is only three off the button that would be too tight.

This is a very bad flop but maybe you have caught him with AQ-A8, 88-77, or QJ. Betting the flop is correct and you should call the checkraise to draw a card. You have a 2-way backdoor straight draw which is the equivalent of a third out so the pot and implied odds are there.

You also can hope that he will check the turn. I would probably check behind and call the river, not risking a second checkraise. The fact that BB is running out of ammunition is an extra reason to check if you need one.

Once MP2 bets the turn I might call him down heads up, but BB called two cold preflop and will often have a king or QQ-99. That and the fact that MP2 should be less frivolous in a 3-way pot convinces me to fold.

[The Armchair]

With BB able to go all-in, I doubt MP2 is trying to fancy-play himself into a win here. It's likely he has AK or KQ and figures he's ahead here. I'd have called the check-raise, knowing full well that I shouldn't have /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Ralph Wiggum]

[ QUOTE ]
If the raise had come from an earlier position I might fold preflop. Since he is only three off the button that would be too tight.

[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe I'm too loose, b/c I don't care where a raise comes from, I'm always playing TT for one raise.

[ QUOTE ]
Betting the flop is correct and you should call the checkraise to draw a card. You have a 2-way backdoor straight draw which is the equivalent of a third out so the pot and implied odds are there.


[/ QUOTE ]
I agree that you have to bet this flop. But with the c/r, I DO (edited) think it's a fold on the flop. You have BB who CC'd PF, so even if he is shortstacked, there's a good chance of him coming in with a semi-decent hand (PP or face cards). There's a good chance that MP2 will also have face cards even if he doesn't have the King. That means even if you pick up your gutshot draw on the turn, your two outs to your set are now no good, b/c it completes their gutshot. I doubt you have the implied odds for this call.


Bet flop &amp; fold to c/r.

[gvibes]

I agree with Ralph here - if you call the flop check-raise, that means you aren't giving him credit for a king. If you aren't giving him credit for a king, you have to call the turn bet.

I don't know what the right play is, but you have to play it consistently - either give him credit for the hand and fold, or call it down.

[Haupt_234]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe I'm too loose, b/c I don't care where a raise comes from, I'm always playing TT for one raise.


[/ QUOTE ]

Same here.

Haupt_234

[Haupt_234]

I don't think the results matter at all here, but MP2 and BB both flip over J9o.

Haupt_234

[colgin]

Assuming that MP2 is a typical player I just fold to the checkraise. I would feel differently headsup but with another player protecting the pot I think you are drawing to two outs (plus your weak backdoor staright draw) against a pair of Kings.

Colgin

[meep_42]

[ QUOTE ]
If you're giving him credit for the King, then don't you fold on the flop (after his c/r)?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're getting 14.33:1 on a call, isn't it pretty obligatory to see if you can spike a set on the turn (unless you put him on KK, of course)?

-d

[Ralph Wiggum]

This was a trick question. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif You didn't tell us that MP2 was a LAG/maniac. Then I'd raise/cap_flop/bet_turn or raise/call_down.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
That means even if you pick up your gutshot draw on the turn, your two outs to your set are now no good, b/c it completes their gutshot.

[/ QUOTE ]
You are getting 14.6-1 on the checkraise call assuming BB calls.

If you spike a ten you are now a large favorite to win and will usually collect several BB on the late streets.

A seven or eight gives you a gutshot without helping your opponents or prejudicing your set outs. This should count as 1/2 clean out.

I agree that a queen or jack would be very scary. The resulting gutshot is the nuts and won't split very often. I'd say that a ten will win about half the time. It will be close as to whether you can keep playing the hand so I agree that this part of the backdoor draw is nearly worthless.

With 2.5 good outs and some implied odds the pot is about big enough to break even. The extra edge here is you have the button. MP2 will either lose his nerve or try a checkraise often enough that you will get some free cards.

Even if the flop call is only breakeven you should do it just to maintain appearances. Otherwise next time he tries this play he will have QJ or 88.

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think the results matter at all here, but MP2 and BB both flip over J9o.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yet another illustration of why it helps to know what type of player you are up against.

[Ralph Wiggum]

[ QUOTE ]
If you spike a ten you are now a large favorite to win and will usually collect several BB on the late streets.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, you're a huge favorite, but I don't see the Hero collecting a lot of bets later on. BB is basically all-in.

[ QUOTE ]
A seven or eight gives you a gutshot without helping your opponents or prejudicing your set outs. This should count as 1/2 clean out.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ack I forgot about those.

Ok, I'm convinced this is a definite call, and hoping to turn a T, 8, 7.

[mikeyvegas]

I think your line if fine here against a typical or unknown PF raiser. After getting check-raised on a pretty drawless flop, I see nothing with folding unimproved(no Q, J, T, 8 or 7) on the turn.

[lil']

If you're giving him credit for the King, then don't you fold on the flop (after his c/r)?
Yeah, forgot to add that part in. Thanks, Ralph.

[Ralph Wiggum]

I've switched sides. I'm going w/ call now. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[SA125]

If you're unsure whether you're beat here on the flop and don't want to call it down, re-raise. It does 3 things. It puts the BB on the spot and maybe gets him out. It gives MP the option of capping or going for turn c/r. It supports the times you do have a big hand because they'll remember the times you 3 bet the flop and ch'd the turn and they'll come after you.

I think 8 out of 10 times you 3 bet they go for turn c/r. Now you get a free look at the river. Whether you call that depends on pot odds and your instinct. If they cap the flop or lead again on the turn, decide if you think you're beat. Being aggressive early can make it easier deciding what to do late.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
Check-raising two opponents often indicates a stronger hand than if he just raised you. Also, there are no draws on the board. It also looks like BB is short-stacked and is going all in here.

I'd give him credit for the K...

[/ QUOTE ]

So do I--or at least credit for a hand which can beat TT. Indeed, unless you think he's LAGish enough to make a foolish c/r here with some nonsense like AQ, fold it and don't lose sleep over it.

[Analyst]

Would MP2's check-raise make sense if he held A9 instead of J9?

[Ralph Wiggum]

[ QUOTE ]
Would MP2's check-raise make sense if he held A9 instead of J9?

[/ QUOTE ]
No. If he had A9, he should have bet out. Also w/ A9, his PFR would then make no sense. Nothing MP2 did in this hand makes sense.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
No. If he had A9, he should have bet out. Also w/ A9, his PFR would then make no sense. Nothing MP2 did in this hand makes sense.

[/ QUOTE ]
It appears the checkraise creates enormous pressure on thinking-player Button to fold any hand less than a king. I'm not sure that it makes no sense.

Open-raising with A9o from Button+3 is somewhat loose, but much more sensible than limping.