stop and go - is this how you do it ?

[stripsqueez]

Ad5s in a 10/20 6 max game

the rich but silly button open limps and the SB completes - i check

flop is 5c 7s 8h - the SB checks, i bet and the button raises - SB folds and i call

turn is Kc - i bet out and the button calls

river is 2s - check/check

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[Guido]

No, I check-raise the flop and play the turn and river the same way. Why do you bet out? Don't you think the button will bet his overcards close to always? Or were you sure he would raise his overcards too? In that case I like it.

Guido

[chezlaw]

This comes up regularly. I prefer betting weak pairs to check-raising them. A fair amount of the time you win immediately which is good with 3rd pair and if they call you often win by betting the turn.

Check-raising just encourages a fight which is worth avoiding with 3rd pair. Last time I suggested this was to Stripsqueez who disagreed /images/graemlins/smile.gif I suspect he still does really.

Why do you think check-raising is better, is it just a matter of style or is there a correct answer.

[fyodor]

If the question is, 'does this fit the definition of a stop and go play' I answer yes. It fits my definition. There was a thread in one of the tournament forums where people had all kinds of weird definitions.

If the question is, 'is this a good place for a stop and go' I still say yes. When you don't reraise the flop but then come right out betting the turn it looks like the turn helped you ie you were betting overcards on the flop and one just hit.

So no matter what the question is my answer is yes.

[Guido]

I think it's a matter of style. I'm not sure whether there is a correct way. I think check-raising gives more strength to your hand than playing stop and go. When you check-raise and a blank falls on the turn you are more likely to pick the pot right there. When you play stop and go, you "need" a scary card on the turn to make this work. He is less likely to fold his overcards on the turn when you check-raise than when you play stop and go IMO. He might even fold second pair on the turn after check-raising. I don't think that's going to happen when you play stop and go. I'm curious about what the rest thinks.

Guido

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's a matter of style. I'm not sure whether there is a correct way. I think check-raising gives more strength to your hand than playing stop and go.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was only talking about the stratagy of betting vs going for a check-raise. The plan is for them to call or fold.

I didn't get as far as the stop-n-go bit which I think is opponent dependent.

[Guido]

I was only talking about the stratagy of betting vs going for a check-raise. The plan is for them to call or fold.

Uhm ok, sorry about that.

I didn't get as far as the stop-n-go bit which I think is opponent dependent.

I think going for a check-raise is also opponent dependent.

Your only objective in this hand is to win it. Not to built a pot or something like that. His opponent only made a weak call preflop indicating he's weak. I don't think he's going to fold to a single bet when he only has overcards and he certainly isn't going to fold when he has a pair. I hope we agree on that. So you have to win the hand on the turn or river. I think you have a better chance to win it on the turn when you go for a check-raise than when you bet on the flop and turn. The disadvantage is that it costs a little more and that you opponent has to bet out on the flop to make it work. In general I don't think it doesn't matter much. I don't think we can only look at the flop action without thinking at least one street further. That's part of the strategy I think.

Guido

[Peter_rus]

PF,Flop - the same. Turn - check-fold or check-call if not improved and depending on level of aggresiveness of my opponent. River is also optional.

[Peter_rus]

Yes you right but A5 on this flop is very weak and not worth check-raising - while people usually _call_ c/r on flop while they can fold to immediate bet. I would c/r top pair and middle pair with good kicker when im pretty sure im ahead... Maybe mixing 50/50 c/r with bet could be best.

[Guido]

You don't have to have a strong hand to make a check-raise correct IMO. Yes they will probably call a check-raise but they will also call a bet with the same kind of hands. When it's worth a bet when checked to, it's also worth a call when you bet. At least that's the way they play. I do have to say that I see them fold to my check-raise on the flop quite often.

Guido

[Peter_rus]

[ QUOTE ]
I do have to say that I see them fold to my check-raise on the flop quite often.

[/ QUOTE ]

But not so often as when you bet first, agree? Check-raise is a way to collect extra chips with good hand and also the way to sometimes trick.., while betting is a way to get pot right now. Even though they are stupid they usually like more to call 1SB in 7SB pot and not 1SB in 4SB pot...

[Guido]

But not so often as when you bet first, agree?

Not really, they almost never fold to 1 single bet on the flop, maybe 0-10%. They do fold to a check-raise I think about 10-20% of the time. Maybe it's just me /images/graemlins/frown.gif.

These guys don't look at the pot, certainly not when they open limp at the button.

Guido

[ZZZ]

Hi stripsqueez,

Could you explain why you don't raise preflop here? You have average position and what's likely the best hand.

Don't you win this pot more than 1/3 of the time? If so, what's the argument for not raising that trumps the value you are getting for the raise.

Thanks,
ZZZ

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
I was only talking about the stratagy of betting vs going for a check-raise. The plan is for them to call or fold.

Uhm ok, sorry about that.

I didn't get as far as the stop-n-go bit which I think is opponent dependent.

I think going for a check-raise is also opponent dependent.

Your only objective in this hand is to win it. Not to built a pot or something like that. His opponent only made a weak call preflop indicating he's weak. I don't think he's going to fold to a single bet when he only has overcards and he certainly isn't going to fold when he has a pair. I hope we agree on that. So you have to win the hand on the turn or river. I think you have a better chance to win it on the turn when you go for a check-raise than when you bet on the flop and turn. The disadvantage is that it costs a little more and that you opponent has to bet out on the flop to make it work. In general I don't think it doesn't matter much. I don't think we can only look at the flop action without thinking at least one street further. That's part of the strategy I think.


[/ QUOTE ]


Sorry I think I caused confusions and I didn't mean to hijack this thread. We have the same plan for the turn i.e. bet. The only difference is whether to bet the flop or checkraise.

In both cases it can only become stop-n-go if we get played back at on the flop.

Anyway, Peter has stated it more clearly and I agree with him that betting is preferable. I think there is a good debate to be had on this but perhaps we should leave this stop-n-go thread in peace.

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
Check-raising just encourages a fight which is worth avoiding with 3rd pair. Last time I suggested this was to Stripsqueez who disagreed /images/graemlins/smile.gif I suspect he still does really

[/ QUOTE ]

you suspect correctly - i check raise the flop a lot - this time i had a feeling right or wrong that betting out was a better shot to get him to fold

on the topic of whats most likely to get him to fold - sometimes when you check raise they suffer from what i call the rezillo factor - they are so embarrased/cross to have been check raised that they call down with anything - betting out gives a less embarrasing opportunity for them to fold - so i agree with what you say about encouraging a fight but i think its a little different

like i said - i prefer to check raise even with weak bits of the flop the majority of the time so this was an unusual hand for me

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't you think the button will bet his overcards close to always?

[/ QUOTE ]

he will do it a lot and i remember all the king high type hands i folded to his cheap steals - i usually check raise

[ QUOTE ]
Or were you sure he would raise his overcards too? In that case I like it

[/ QUOTE ]

so this play is good if they will fold quickly to the flop bet or if they are crazy aggro and raise the flop bet with bananas - thats kind of what troubled me about this hand - for no particular reason i thought he would fold if i bet out but instead he raised - so then i got thinking about what he would have and i realised he might be taking a shot with some crappy hand or draw - so why did i figure that betting out was a good plan ? - it feels like somewhere i got this wrong

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
Could you explain why you don't raise preflop here? You have average position and what's likely the best hand

[/ QUOTE ]

hmmm - i will sometimes raise A9o here - when i turn the key the foot hits the pedal and doesnt come off so i like to drive big trucks

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[stripsqueez]

he had Q4o - did i mention he was rich ?

stripsqueez - chickenhawk